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Switch to Forum Live View Requirements to enter the Mormon heaven.
2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 12:39PM #21
Joe68
Posts: 289

WWA,


Can you please cite a Mormon scripture or another authoritative source for your conclusion that to get into the telestial kingdom one must finally bow his knee to Christ?


 I ask because in the Gospel Principles Chapter 36 there is this teaching:


The people who live in the telestial kingdom are those who did not accept either the gospel or a testimony of Jesus, either on earth or in the spirit world



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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 7:13PM #22
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,073

Apr 19, 2012 -- 12:39PM, Joe68 wrote:


WWA,


Can you please cite a Mormon scripture or another authoritative source for your conclusion that to get into the telestial kingdom one must finally bow his knee to Christ?


 I ask because in the Gospel Principles Chapter 36 there is this teaching:


The people who live in the telestial kingdom are those who did not accept either the gospel or a testimony of Jesus, either on earth or in the spirit world







I think your problem is you needed to read all of D&C 76. It talks of sons of perdition first and their outcome before it ever gets around to talking about who goes to the three different kingdoms.


From D&C 76; 41-45
“…he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world…That through him all might be saved …… except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment …to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows”


At the end of the millennium and this punishment period there well be a final resurrection (I’m referring to Rev 20) and even these potential sons of perdition will receive their resurrection. We will all stand before the throne of God for a final judgment. I’m assuming they will be in the position of having the Son “revealed” to them.


As an example; Cain has been designated the first son of perdition because he loved Satan more than he loved God “and he gloried in his wickedness” Moses 5.


There are some who standing at the bar of God having the Son revealed will love Satan more than God.


They will finally bow the knee and accept Christ or they are a son of perdition and will not go to the Telestial Kingdom.




Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 2:25AM #23
Joe68
Posts: 289

WWA,


I find it interesting that you say, “I’m assuming they will be in the position of having the Son ‘revealed’ to them.”  You ASSUME? That is a pretty big assumption. Nothing you wrote showed that anyone in the spirit prison needed to exercise faith in Christ or the gospel or even repent to be admitted into the telestial heaven.


Here is D&C 176: 81 & 82


81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.


82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.


This is exactly what I’ve been saying. Those in the Mormon heaven (telestial level) get there without Jesus or his gospel. They get there by paying for their sins in spirit prison.


Here is another teaching from the official LDS website:


Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.


And yet another teaching from the official LDS website


 Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory


Both of these teach that those who pay for their own sins obtain heaven (3rd level) without Jesus or the gospel. There is no mention of Jesus, faith, the gospel, or etc.


So when Mormons proclaim that one needs to be baptized to be saved that is incorrect. One needs baptism (according to Mormon theology) to obtain the upper level heavens and not lose out on the chance to be come a god themselves   

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 4:00PM #24
Ironhold
Posts: 11,386

Apr 20, 2012 -- 2:25AM, Joe68 wrote:



So when Mormons proclaim that one needs to be baptized to be saved that is incorrect. One needs baptism (according to Mormon theology) to obtain the upper level heavens and not lose out on the chance to be come a god themselves   




Do you even understand the difference between the LDS teaching on salvation vs. the LDS teaching on exaltation?



Salvation, to at least some degree, is already a free gift; everyone will come forward in time, and everyone will make it through to the afterlife somehow.


But that's like getting a C in a class.


If you want to do better, you've got to work for it.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 11:01AM #25
Joe68
Posts: 289

As outlined previously, to be saved—or to gain salvation— according to Mormon theology means to guard against or rescue from physical AND spiritual death.


The LDS teach that because of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death. Resurrection, or immortality, comes to every man and every woman as an unconditional gift. Simply put, whether one believes in Christ, has faith in Him or obeys Him does not matter. Everyone will be saved from physical death because of Jesus. This is the “free” gift you speak of.


However one can still end up in any of the three Mormon heavens – celestial, terrestrial, telestial -or hell depending on how much they “work” at it. 


In Mormon theology eternal life, or celestial glory or exaltation, is a conditional gift. Those qualifying conditions include faith in the Lord, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, a temple marriage, and remaining faithful to the ordinances and covenants of the temple and etc. One attaining this level may possibly become a god and then, with his goddess wife, populate this planet with their children.


But the pertinent thing for this discussion is that persons assigned to telestial kingdom level of heaven are the unrepentant sinners who never accepted the gospel of Jesus Christeither in mortality or in the postmortal world. Prior to entering the telestial kingdom, they will have to undergo an extensive period of suffering to atone for their own sins because they rejected the atoning sacrifice of Christ. They essentially save themselves through their own efforts and suffering.


As I’ve stated before in Mormon theology one can attain heaven whose glory “surpasses all understanding” without Jesus Christ, faith, the gospel, and etc.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 4:51PM #26
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,073

Joe quoting me; "I’m assuming they will be in the position of having the Son ‘revealed’ to them."



Okay I’ll explain why I would assume, perhaps the word assume was a bad choice of words.


Every single person who stands before that final judgment bar has ready had their sins forgiven. You’ll note in Revelations 20 there are two judgments


"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them"


All the different Prophets as head of their dispensations will be there with Christ. There will be a judgment of forgiveness of sin as each has the grace of Christ applied. They are forgiven and they enter into that millennium world.


Verse 11 takes place at the end of the millennial reign and there is another judgment before the Great White Throne with God the Father himself there. At this point we are judge by our works to determine which glory we receive. We could not stand there before God if we were un-pure for only the pure shall see or can see God.


For Cain and other sons of perdition their sins have not been forgive, the sin against the Holy Ghost can not be forgiven. So just how the Son will be revealed to them I don’t know. I’m assuming there must be some way the Son is revealed to them and they cry out their last angry denial.


Now let’s look at D&C 76


"These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. These are they who are thrust down to hell.


These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.


These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial"


As I read that I understand it to mean during this earth life and the spirit world they would not receive the gospel, they would refuse to listen. To receive a testimony of Christ one must have it witnessed to him by the Holy Spirit. There is a condition where someone can become so hard hearted they can no longer feel the spirit.


Nephi said to his older brothers;
Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words…. O, then, why is it, that ye can be so hard in your hearts? 1Nephi 17


Apparently these who go into the spirit prison for punishment hardened their hearts before the Holy Spirit could testify to them or they lost the witness but they did not deny the Holy Ghost for they had never received it or sufficiently received it to qualify as deigning the Holy Spirit.



In D&C 19 we learn:
“Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—” D&C 19


Yes Joe those that go into this prison must save themselves or in other words pay for their own sins, the grace of Christ will not cover them.


Eidit note (Since Joe insist on using a born again Christian definition of the word ‘saved’ ie getting out of hell fire, I’m rephrasing sentence here.)


See posting 29




But as they come out of that prison clean from sin they have a forth opportunity to bow the knee, for 99% of them their hard heartedness will be gone they will be sufficiently humbled enough that they will recognize Christ as Lord.


“…I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear” Isa 45:23


Even the devils believe but they lack the humility!


What does he mean by ‘fulness’? In LDS literature it is used several different ways. One way is the fulness of the gospel, meaning to have a full knowledge of. But here we’re talking about something else.


“ …as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.” John 1


“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power” Col 2:10


“And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.” Eph 3


Those who go into this kingdom will not receive this, while they are happy and at peace they will never know the fullness of Christ.



In your so called traditional Christianity you would have God the Father of us all a being who is supposedly full of love burn in hell most of his creations. He would be a abject failure for very very few who come into this world ever hear or accept Christianity.


I reject that god as a false god made in and of the imagination of man.

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 12:09PM #27
Joe68
Posts: 289

Apr 21, 2012 -- 4:51PM, withwonderingawe wrote:

Yes Joe those that go into this prison must save themselves or in other words pay for their own sins, the grace of Christ will not cover them.




I'm a bit busy right now and I'll have further comment later but for now, thank you for acknowledging the fact that the Mormon church teaches that people can be saved without faith in Jesus Christ, his gospel, repentance, and etc.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 12:41PM #28
Ironhold
Posts: 11,386

Apr 23, 2012 -- 12:09PM, Joe68 wrote:


Apr 21, 2012 -- 4:51PM, withwonderingawe wrote:

Yes Joe those that go into this prison must save themselves or in other words pay for their own sins, the grace of Christ will not cover them.




I'm a bit busy right now and I'll have further comment later but for now, thank you for acknowledging the fact that the Mormon church teaches that people can be saved without faith in Jesus Christ, his gospel, repentance, and etc.




...or it could just be that this goes back to "playing a good game vs. merely talking one".

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 12:59PM #29
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,073

Joe; that people can be saved without faith in Jesus Christ, his gospel, repentance, and etc.



No I’m going to rephrase that;


They were not saved at all they had to pay for their own sins, they lost their salvation. They also so lost the “fullness of Christ” and must live forever without his presence.


It’s okay that our Father in Heaven still loves them and wants them to be happy.

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 8:36PM #30
Joe68
Posts: 289

WWA writes: Every single person who stands before that final judgment bar has ready had their sins forgiven.


Umm, no they are NOT forgiven according to Mormon theology. Those in the telestial kingdom have paid for their sins, they are not forgiven. It would be like somebody owning me $500 and after he pays me back, I then say your debt is forgiven. That would be untrue. There is a major difference between having a debt forgiven and having to pay a debt.


You’ll note in Revelations 20 there are two judgments"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" All the different Prophets as head of their dispensations will be there with Christ.


There is nothing in this verse that says anything about prophets being the head of their dispensations or that they are the ones seated on the thrones in Rev 20. Dn. 7:9–14, 27 give the answer as to who are those seated on thrones: ‘the saints, the people of the Most High’, with which Rev. 5:9–14 and 19:7 agree.


There will be a judgment of forgiveness of sin as each has the grace of Christ applied.


“…a judgment of forgiveness of sin…”  What does that even mean?


They are forgiven and they enter into that millennium world.


I'm not sure what you mean by "millennium world". Do you mean this is another way of refering to heaven? If not then it is irrelevant since I am talking about requirements to gain entrance into the Mormon heaven. If yes then this again absolutely contradicts what the Mormon church has taught about concerning those in the telestial kingdom.  


Verse 11 takes place at the end of the millennial reign and there is another judgment before the Great White Throne with God the Father himself there. At this point we are judge by our works to determine which glory we receive. We could not stand there before God if we were un-pure for only the pure shall see or can see God.


You may want to read Rev 20: 15 (And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire) as it refutes your statement since some who are standing before God are condemned. Unless you think the pure go to hell? 


But as they come out of that prison clean from sin they have a forth opportunity to bow the knee, for 99% of them their hard heartedness will be gone they will be sufficiently humbled enough that they will recognize Christ as Lord.


Remember that any sort of “bowing to God” happens AFTER they are in heaven. After they earn their way in via their own suffering.  

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