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Switch to Forum Live View Requirements to enter the Mormon heaven.
2 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2012 - 10:02AM #41
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,117

I’ve been a Mormon for over 50 years I think I know what it teaches.


Iron is right you are still taking your definition and applying it to ours. I’m trying to separate out the different items or points of doctrine using langue you should be able to understand.


We honestly do not use the word hell all that often. We speak in terms of spirit prison and outer darkness and don’t even dwell on that much either.


You quoting;
Mormon Salvation defined: To be saved from both physical and spiritual death. All people will be saved from physical death by the grace of God, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Each individual can also be saved from spiritual death as well by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ. This faith is manifested in a life of obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel and service to Christ.



So lets define spiritual death;


“Separation from God and his influences; to die as to things pertaining to righteousness. Lucifer and a third part of the hosts of heaven suffered a spiritual death when they were cast out of heaven (D&C 29:36–37).


Spiritual death was introduced into the world by the fall of Adam (Moses 6:48). Mortals with evil thoughts, words, and works are spiritually dead while still alive on earth (1 Tim. 5:6). Through the atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel, men and women can become clean from sin and overcome spiritual death.


Spiritual death also occurs following the death of the mortal body. Both resurrected beings and the devil and his angels will be judged. Those who have willfully rebelled against the light and truth of the gospel will suffer spiritual death. This death is often called the second death (Alma 12:16; Hel. 14:16–19; D&C 76:36–38).”


Now D&C 76:36-38
“That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.”


Most of those who go into the spirit prison having to pay for their own sins will at some point bow their knee to Christ as he is revealed to them.


Alma in the middle of his torment has Christ reveled to him;


“And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world. Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.


And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more. And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!


Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.” Alma 36



I’m quoting again from Doctrine and Covenants sec 19


“ For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;….I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken…”


There must be a point where a person languishing in the spirit prison is sufficiently humbled so they are able to hear or remember the teachings of the atonement of Christ. The Holy Spirit is able to reach and teach them, they do not deny him.


I found this article; God’s Plan—Kinder than We Dare to Expect
Which might shed some light. It’s written by H. Wallace Goddard. In it he quotes a lot from Frederick Denison Maurice and his writings on “the wider hope”, Also from Frederic W. Farrar’s, “Eternal Hope” 1878.


“Farrar taught that the Biblical words that were translated as hell were not intended by the Biblical authors to suggest a neverending state of suffering and punishment. Rather, “the Latin derivative was originally formed not to express mere torture, but cleansing, correcting, delivering from the stain of sin” (p. 408). For most of those who were consigned to hell, it was intended to be temporary and corrective”


That is what we are saying, those who will not bow the knee to Christ will go through this cleansings, they see all of their sins and feel a great remorse. Luke wrote of Christ suffering in the Garden “…being in an agony he prayed more earnestly..”. Somehow he took upon himself all of our sins, he suffered in agony that we might not have to.


I suggest you read the whole article; this quote fits our discussion here.


“A new understanding of hell


Modern revelation teaches us that hell entails terrible suffering (D&C 19:15). But we also learn that the only hell that endures without end is the suffering of the sons of perdition (D&C 76:37–38). “he saves all except them” (D&C 76:44). Those who commit all manner of sin but do not deny the Holy Ghost are cast into hell to pay for their own sins. But their hell has an end. They are cleansed and are released to the telestial kingdom (D&C 76:85,106; Matthew 12:31), a degree of glory so joyous that it “surpasses all understanding” (D&C 76:89). The fact that liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers will be allowed to pay for their sins and receive a degree of joyous glory is astonishing. It may seem to be too kind to be true. Yet, that is what we should expect from a God who is perfect in knowledge and perfect in love. His plan is always kinder than we had dared to expect.


Part of the sectarian world’s theological difficulty is that they only have an all-or-nothing plan of salvation. A person goes to bliss or to unending pain—heaven or hell. Churches define differently the critical requirements for heaven. But logic revolts at the suggestion that any requirement should divide all of God’s children into two groups with vastly different rewards.


Modern revelation tells us not only about the three degrees of glory but suggests that within each kingdom there are differences that allow for the unique expression of every human being (D&C 131:1, John 14:2). Even in the telestial kingdom, “one star differs from another star in glory” (D&C 76:98).


www.drwally.org/celebrating-god/god%E2%8...

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:41PM #42
Joe68
Posts: 289

Let’s start with the article you linked concerning hell or outer darkness. I’m not exactly sure what the purpose of it was. Mormons believe in an eternal hell as do Christians. One only needs to lookup “hell”, ‘outer darkness”, or ‘sons of perdition” at LDS.org to see that.  


Re the Alma story you posted. I’m not exactly sure what the purpose of it was either. He suffered in this life, correct? How does this impact how one will suffer in the Mormon spirit prison? And the result of that suffering? It seems as if you are comparing apples to oranges.


Now the point of this thread is to determine what is required for someone to enter the Mormon heaven. And as has been pointed out in the OP and other posts the Mormon church on its very own website say that those in the telesial heaven are there even though did not accept either the gospel or a testimony of Jesus, either on earth or in the spirit world and they are those who will not repent.


Saying that those in the telestial heaven will not see the fullness of Jesus, or that the must suffer for their sins or that the TK is a lesser heaven or that those there will bow to the Mormon Jesus at some time in the future (after they are in heaven) does not mitigate against the fact the Mormon church teaches that those in the telesial heaven get there without accepting either the gospel or a testimony of Jesus, either on earth or in the spirit world and those there are those who will not repent.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 10:21PM #43
Ironhold
Posts: 11,459

Apr 30, 2012 -- 2:41PM, Joe68 wrote:


Saying that those in the telestial heaven will not see the fullness of Jesus, or that the must suffer for their sins or that the TK is a lesser heaven or that those there will bow to the Mormon Jesus at some time in the future (after they are in heaven) does not mitigate against the fact the Mormon church teaches that those in the telesial heaven get there without accepting either the gospel or a testimony of Jesus, either on earth or in the spirit world and those there are those who will not repent.




Methinks that if the term "Heaven" wasn't present you wouldn't have a single issue with any of this.

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 7:48AM #44
Joe68
Posts: 289

Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:21PM, Ironhold wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 2:41PM, Joe68 wrote:


Saying that those in the telestial heaven will not see the fullness of Jesus, or that the must suffer for their sins or that the TK is a lesser heaven or that those there will bow to the Mormon Jesus at some time in the future (after they are in heaven) does not mitigate against the fact the Mormon church teaches that those in the telesial heaven get there without accepting either the gospel or a testimony of Jesus, either on earth or in the spirit world and those there are those who will not repent.




Methinks that if the term "Heaven" wasn't present you wouldn't have a single issue with any of this.



Yes, if the Mormon church did not teach what they do, then there wouldn't be an issue.


But since they purport to be a christian church that is based on the Bible there are "issues" when what they teach isn't found in the Bible nor in any historic teaching of the Christian church.

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 8:23AM #45
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,117

Joe; Re the Alma story you posted. I’m not exactly sure what the purpose of it was either. He suffered in this life, correct? How does this impact how one will suffer in the Mormon spirit prison? And the result of that suffering?



I’m using it as a type or shadow of what is to come.



Joe; … the Mormon church on its very own website say that those in the telesial heaven are there even though did not accept either the gospel or a testimony of Jesus, either on earth or in the spirit world and they are those who will not repent.


Let’s break this down further for you.


There is given during this earth life a time to repent. Then there is the spirit world consisting of paradise and the prison where the gospel is taught and those spirits are allowed to repent and accept Christ.


And then there is hell the place where those who would not repent “either on earth or in the spirit world” go to suffer for their own sins. When they have suffered enough the Holy Spirit will be able to reach to them as he did with Alma and they will call out


“ O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.”


They will be brought out of that hell and receive their reward.


Really Joe do you want to worship a god who is a monster, a god who would cause the eternal suffering of anyone. He’s suppose to be a God of perfect love. I guess I just don’t understand your position.

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 11:02AM #46
Joe68
Posts: 289

May 1, 2012 -- 8:23AM, withwonderingawe wrote:


Joe; Re the Alma story you posted. I’m not exactly sure what the purpose of it was either. He suffered in this life, correct? How does this impact how one will suffer in the Mormon spirit prison? And the result of that suffering?



I’m using it as a type or shadow of what is to come.



Joe; … the Mormon church on its very own website say that those in the telesial heaven are there even though did not accept either the gospel or a testimony of Jesus, either on earth or in the spirit world and they are those who will not repent.


Let’s break this down further for you.


There is given during this earth life a time to repent. Then there is the spirit world consisting of paradise and the prison where the gospel is taught and those spirits are allowed to repent and accept Christ.


And then there is hell the place where those who would not repent “either on earth or in the spirit world” go to suffer for their own sins. When they have suffered enough the Holy Spirit will be able to reach to them as he did with Alma and they will call out


“ O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.”


They will be brought out of that hell and receive their reward.


Really Joe do you want to worship a god who is a monster, a god who would cause the eternal suffering of anyone. He’s suppose to be a God of perfect love. I guess I just don’t understand your position.




WWA: I’m using it as a type or shadow of what is to come.


For something to be a type or foreshadow something else they must share some similarities. If I am talking about someone in the Mormon spirit prison who does not repent, but does reject Jesus and the gospel. So there are too few similarities when you speak of Alma who repented and accepted the Mormon Jesus in an earthly life. So the story of Alma has no impact, sheds no light as to the fate of those in the SP who don’t repent, and reject Jesus and the gospel.


There is given during this earth life a time to repent. Then there is the spirit world consisting of paradise and the prison where the gospel is taught and those spirits are allowed to repent and accept Christ.


And then there is hell the place where those who would not repent “either on earth or in the spirit world” go to suffer for their own sins. When they have suffered enough the Holy Spirit will be able to reach to them as he did with Alma and they will call out


Yes, there are those in the Mormon spirit prison who will repent and accept the Mormon Jesus. And they apparently go to the 2nd level Mormon heaven - the terrestrial kingdom


However if you read the OP you will see that the Mormon Telestial Kingdom (3rd level) is for those who do not repent, who reject Jesus, his gospel, have no faith and etc.


This is quite clearly taught on the offical Mormon website.


Really Joe do you want to worship a god who is a monster, a god who would cause the eternal suffering of anyone. He’s suppose to be a God of perfect love. I guess I just don’t understand your position.


Your reasoning is fallacious.


The LDS teach that hell [aka outer darkness] is a place of eternal suffering and those who are designated as “sons of perdition” will dwell there eternally. If you accept the Mormon god as a “non-monster” then it is then it is fallacious reasoning to condemn the Christian God on that basis.  




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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 9:29AM #47
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,117

Joe; For something to be a type or foreshadow something else they must share some similarities.


Alma was discussing the pains of a damned soul, seems similar to me.


Zeezrom goes through a similar experience in Alma 14 & 15


“Zeezrom was astonished at the words which had been spoken; and he also knew concerning the blindness of the minds, which he had caused among the people by his lying words; and his soul began to be harrowed up under a consciousness of his own guilt; yea, he began to be encircled about by the pains of hell.”


“Zeezrom lay sick at Sidom, with a burning fever, which was caused by the great tribulations of his mind on account of his wickedness, for he supposed that Alma and Amulek were no more; and he supposed that they had been slain because of his iniquity. And this great sin, and his many other sins, did harrow up his mind until it did become exceedingly sore, having no deliverance; therefore he began to be scorched with a burning heat…and they went in unto the house unto Zeezrom; and they found him upon his bed, sick, being very low with a burning fever; and his mind also was exceedingly sore because of his iniquities”


There is an actual physical pain our own minds will put us through as we seek forgiveness.


What do you want the pains of hell to be, real fire and brimstone?


Joe; However if you read the OP you will see that the Mormon Telestial Kingdom (3rd level) is for those who do not repent, who reject Jesus, his gospel, have no faith and etc.


Who will not repent on this earth or in the spirit prison when given the opportunity before they enter hell.


You're quibbling again. I am a Mormon I know the gospel why are you jumping up and down on this except you again can’t stand to be wrong.

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 7:47PM #48
Joe68
Posts: 289

Re Zeezrom: He experienced pain and sought forgiveness here in this earthly life. Same objection as before. The fact is that you cite someone who in this earthy life repents, so it has little to do with those who do not repent in the spirit prison.


WWA: Who will not repent on this earth or in the spirit prison when given the opportunity before they enter hell.


You are at odds with the official LDS teaching.  See the OP for official LDS teaching that the telestial heaven is for those who reject Jesus Christ, his gospel, and repentance.


Here's a repost:


Teachers Manual Lesson 8: The Three Kingdoms of Glory Preparing for Exaltation: Teacher’s Manual, (1998), 38–43


Who Will Inherit Telestial Glory?


Those who Reject the gospel and Reject the testimony of Jesus


The Plan of Salvation


Telestial kingdom. Those who continue in their sins and do not repent will receive a place in the telestial kingdom.


Gospel Principles Chapter 36


The people who live in the telestial kingdom are those who did not accept either the gospel or a testimony of Jesus, either on earth or in the spirit world.


The official LDS website – your very own church - refutes you.


That is three seperate official LDS sources, try addressing what is being taught there - on the official Mormon website.

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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 12:04AM #49
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,117

Joe; You are at odds with the official LDS teaching.



As a Mormon who understands the ins and outs of Mormon doctrine and Mormon terminology when I read “the spirit world” I understand it to mean paradise and the spirit prison where Peter says Jesus went to teach the spirits. When I read hell I understand it to mean, the place were spirits will go to suffer for their own sins and then finally outer darkness.



You are trying to force your own made up Mormon doctrine on us so you can find fault.



I think we are done with this subject. 

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  May 08, 2012 - 2:18AM #50
Joe68
Posts: 289

May 8, 2012 -- 12:04AM, withwonderingawe wrote:


Joe; You are at odds with the official LDS teaching.


As a Mormon who understands the ins and outs of Mormon doctrine and Mormon terminology when I read “the spirit world” I understand it to mean paradise and the spirit prison where Peter says Jesus went to teach the spirits. When I read hell I understand it to mean, the place were spirits will go to suffer for their own sins and then finally outer darkness.



You are trying to force your own made up Mormon doctrine on us so you can find fault.



I think we are done with this subject. 



Whether "the spirit world" means paradise or spirit prison or whatever your church, the Mormon church, teaches that the telestial heaven - which surpasses all glory - is for those who reject Jesus, his gospel, and repentance.


It is not my "made up Mormon doctrine" it is one that is taught right there on LDS.org the official Mormon church website. I linked to three different places where it is taught in my last post. It is Mormon doctrine otherwise it wouldn't be on the Mormon website. Just because you can't explain it away does not mean it is not there. See the links above.

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