May 1, 2012 -- 12:34PM, Ironhold wrote:

May 1, 2012 -- 7:57AM, Joe68 wrote:

So what was to be an entry requirement has been changed to a nonnecessity for entrance.

Benchmarking

see also:

Best Practices

This in no way disputes or reconciles the fact that the Mormon Church has taken what were requirements for the Melchezedek priesthood and changed them into a nonnecessity for entry.  

And that fact refutes the idea the the LDS church is a restoration.

WWA: At some point Joe we each will reach the place through the blood of Christ where we are "holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens" .

The requirement to become a MP is that one must be "holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens"

Now both you and Ironhold admit that this requirement is no longer a requirement but a goal that will be met sometime in the future.

If this is the actual LDS doctrinal stance than every single Mormon who says that they hold the Melchezdek priesthood is invalid. They do not qualify. And that is by your own admission of the fact.

The more I study so I can answer your questions the more convinced I become that Joseph Smith was a prophet. The Bible supports him all the way around..

 I’m not sure how one can say that the Bible supports the Mormon version of the MP since Joseph Smith [or some other LDS leader] changed the Biblical qualification for the position of MP into a goal to be achieved.  

 The Bible refutes Joseph Smith.

 WWA: Thus, it is the priesthood which is unchangeable, rather than being non-transferable.

 I do find it curious that I cite several Greek experts and you cite one and then declare victory.

But you are trying to base your whole point on one passage of which the translation is questionable

First wouldn't that also characterize you as well?

Secondly I also find it disturbing that even though I based part of my argument on the context of the passage you chose to ignore that. Here is what I wrote on my previous post:

Here is what is said in context which most people miss:

One of the primary practical reasons there were multiple holders of the Levitical priesthood was because “death prevented them from continuing in office” (Hebrews 7:23). When the high priest died a new one had to be appointed. But because “Jesus lives forever” (v. 24) there is no need for additional holders of the Melchizedek priesthood since Jesus lives forever. This is exactly why the writer of Hebrews chose the word aparabatos to describe Jesus’ priesthood; it is non-transferable.

Perhaps I should have written that Jesus priesthood continues forever because Jesus lives forever.  That is why Christians don’t need people with the MP. Jesus Christ is our Melchizedek priest.

 WWA; I’ve got the whole Bible behind me

 If this is true then please explain:

1) Where in the bible do we find that Melchizedek conferred the priesthood on Abraham or any other OT person?

2) Where in the bible do we find that Melchizedek conferred the priesthood on Peter, James, John or any of the NT disciples or apostles?

3) Where in the bible do we find that Melchizedek priesthood was ever held by anyone other than Jesus or Melchizedek?

WWA …the priesthood is a permanent and necessary part of the Church—any Church claiming it is unnecessary does not meet the Biblical model.

Absolutely correct. However the LDS model of tens of thousands - if not millions - of "Melchizedek priests" running around is not the Biblical model. The Christian Church needs its Melchizedek priest and we have him in the person of Jesus Christ and no one else.

WWA: When you step out of the waters of baptism your sins are completely washed away you are "holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners waiting for God to exalt you.

Where in any LDS scripture or other official Mormon source does it say that “when you step out of the waters of baptism your sins are completely washed away you are "holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners waiting for God to exalt you?

Hum I think Jesus was a priest before he was exalted.

Well according to the Bible Jesus was always God and was thus always exalted, so it would be difficult for him to be a priest before that.  

“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness … Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father…”

That is in the first tense, John is alive & mortal and he considers himself a king and priest.

The question was where does in the Bible it say that anyone was a Melchizedek priest other than Jesus or Melchizedek?  This is a key Mormon doctrine. It should be based on more than just the word "king" or a non-specific "preist" shouldn't it?

 “ And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”

And nowhere does this passage mention Melchizedek priest.

So you’re saying you know better than God? He gave us these men of God to help guide us on the path to perfection.

God certainly gave us men help guide us, but nowhere does it say that God extended the Melchizedek priesthood to anyone other than Melchizedek or Jesus. Remember this is one of the foundational truths of the LDS church. It was a biblical concept that the early church lost, so the Mormons allege.

So where is this foundational teaching found in the Bible that the MP is conferred to anyone other than Melchizedek or Jesus?

May 2, 2012 -- 9:41AM, Ironhold wrote:

Joe -

You know that Gospel Principles manual you keep ignoring?

...

Baptism Gives Us a New Beginning

With baptism we begin a new way of life. That is why we call it a rebirth. Jesus said that unless we are born of the water and of the Spirit, we cannot enter the kingdom of God (see John 3:3–5). This principle was explained clearly to Adam:

“Inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten” (Moses 6:59).

The Apostle Paul said that after our baptism we should begin a new life: “We are buried with him by baptism; … even so we also should walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4). One of the great blessings of baptism is that it provides us with a new start on our way toward our eternal goal.

This has nothing to do with the Melchizedek Priesthood. The discussion where it would be relevant would be here

WWA; I’ve got the whole Bible behind me

Joe; If this is true then please explain:

1) Where in the bible do we find that Melchizedek conferred the priesthood on Abraham or any other OT person?

“And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth”

Melchizedek was priest of El Elyon. He has this higher priesthood, “after the order of the Son” for he gives the sacrament of bread and wine to Abraham.

Melchizedek must have given Abraham the priesthood because Jethro a descendant of Abraham is also known as Ruel or friend of El and is a priest, (remember the Aaronic priesthood does not exist yet). In Ex 18 He performs the sacrifices for Israel and also breaks bread with them or gives them the sacrament.

Now there is a whole bunch of history concerning Abraham’s family the Bible is missing. Jethro didn’t jump in there out of thin air and Moses would not have allowed a pagan to perform the sacrifice. While Israel was languishing in Egypt their cousins the Medianites were alive and well in the promised land. They must have been a fairly righteous people for they retained the priesthood up until Moses came on the seen. They were probably ripe with iniquity by then and Jethro was their last priest.

Now in Exodus 18 Jethro does something which must consist of him giving the priesthood to Moses for he says;

“I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: (take his position as Priest who petitions El) And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.”

There are at this same time other chosen to be judges in Israel.

In the next chapter the Lord speaks to Moses

“Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation..”

Note Peter quotes this passage in 1 Peter 2
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light”

Back to Ex 19
“These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel….And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded……And let the priests also, which come near to the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break forth upon them.”

Now remember the Aaronic priesthood has not be created yet, that does not happen until chapter 40.

So where did these priest come from?

2) Where in the bible do we find that Melchizedek conferred the priesthood on Peter, James, John or any of the NT disciples or apostles?

He did not for Christ was there and he is the head, he’s over Melchizedek. He called and ordained.

3) Where in the bible do we find that Melchizedek priesthood was ever held by anyone other than Jesus or Melchizedek?

I think I’ve shown it, you’re just ignoring all of the evidence because you do not want to see.