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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 12:34PM #21
Ironhold
Posts: 11,548

May 1, 2012 -- 7:57AM, Joe68 wrote:


So what was to be an entry requirement has been changed to a nonnecessity for entrance.




Benchmarking


see also:


Best Practices

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 12:43PM #22
Joe68
Posts: 289

May 1, 2012 -- 12:34PM, Ironhold wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 7:57AM, Joe68 wrote:


So what was to be an entry requirement has been changed to a nonnecessity for entrance.




Benchmarking


see also:


Best Practices



This in no way disputes or reconciles the fact that the Mormon Church has taken what were requirements for the Melchezedek priesthood and changed them into a nonnecessity for entry.  


And that fact refutes the idea the the LDS church is a restoration.


 

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 12:50PM #23
Ironhold
Posts: 11,548

May 1, 2012 -- 12:43PM, Joe68 wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 12:34PM, Ironhold wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 7:57AM, Joe68 wrote:


So what was to be an entry requirement has been changed to a nonnecessity for entrance.




Benchmarking


see also:


Best Practices



This in no way disputes or reconciles the fact that the Mormon Church has taken what were requirements for the Melchezedek priesthood and changed them into a nonnecessity for entry.  


And that fact refutes the idea the the LDS church is a restoration.




You're just going to keep ignoring what we're telling you. Is that about it?


You're grossly misapplying the requirements as being a hard-and-fast minimum rather than the top goal.

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 12:54PM #24
Joe68
Posts: 289

WWA: At some point Joe we each will reach the place through the blood of Christ where we are "holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens" .


The requirement to become a MP is that one must be "holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens"


Now both you and Ironhold admit that this requirement is no longer a requirement but a goal that will be met sometime in the future.


If this is the actual LDS doctrinal stance than every single Mormon who says that they hold the Melchezdek priesthood is invalid. They do not qualify. And that is by your own admission of the fact.


The more I study so I can answer your questions the more convinced I become that Joseph Smith was a prophet. The Bible supports him all the way around..


 I’m not sure how one can say that the Bible supports the Mormon version of the MP since Joseph Smith [or some other LDS leader] changed the Biblical qualification for the position of MP into a goal to be achieved.  


 The Bible refutes Joseph Smith.


 WWA: Thus, it is the priesthood which is unchangeable, rather than being non-transferable.


 I do find it curious that I cite several Greek experts and you cite one and then declare victory.


But you are trying to base your whole point on one passage of which the translation is questionable


First wouldn't that also characterize you as well?


Secondly I also find it disturbing that even though I based part of my argument on the context of the passage you chose to ignore that. Here is what I wrote on my previous post:


Here is what is said in context which most people miss:


One of the primary practical reasons there were multiple holders of the Levitical priesthood was because “death prevented them from continuing in office” (Hebrews 7:23). When the high priest died a new one had to be appointed. But because “Jesus lives forever” (v. 24) there is no need for additional holders of the Melchizedek priesthood since Jesus lives forever. This is exactly why the writer of Hebrews chose the word aparabatos to describe Jesus’ priesthood; it is non-transferable.


Perhaps I should have written that Jesus priesthood continues forever because Jesus lives forever.  That is why Christians don’t need people with the MP. Jesus Christ is our Melchizedek priest.


 WWA; I’ve got the whole Bible behind me


 If this is true then please explain:


1) Where in the bible do we find that Melchizedek conferred the priesthood on Abraham or any other OT person?


2) Where in the bible do we find that Melchizedek conferred the priesthood on Peter, James, John or any of the NT disciples or apostles?


3) Where in the bible do we find that Melchizedek priesthood was ever held by anyone other than Jesus or Melchizedek?


WWA …the priesthood is a permanent and necessary part of the Church—any Church claiming it is unnecessary does not meet the Biblical model.


Absolutely correct. However the LDS model of tens of thousands - if not millions - of "Melchizedek priests" running around is not the Biblical model. The Christian Church needs its Melchizedek priest and we have him in the person of Jesus Christ and no one else.

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2 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 8:56PM #25
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,287

Joe; Now both you and Ironhold admit that this requirement is no longer a requirement but a goal that will be met sometime in the future.



When you step out of the waters of baptism your sins are completely washed away you are "holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners waiting for God to exalt you.


Hum I think Jesus was a priest before he was exalted.


Each time, if you do so humbly, you part take of the sacrament that covenant is renewed and you are once again holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners and waiting for exaltation. The priesthood with its focus on service is the vehicle the Lord uses to teach and guide us.



“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness … Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father…”



That is in the first tense, John is alive & mortal and he considers himself a king and priest.



Joe; That is why Christians don’t need people with the MP. Jesus Christ is our Melchizedek priest.



“ And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”



So you’re saying you know better than God? He gave us these men of God to help guide us on the path to perfection.

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 12:04AM #26
Joe68
Posts: 289

WWA: When you step out of the waters of baptism your sins are completely washed away you are "holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners waiting for God to exalt you.


Where in any LDS scripture or other official Mormon source does it say thatwhen you step out of the waters of baptism your sins are completely washed away you are "holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners waiting for God to exalt you?


Hum I think Jesus was a priest before he was exalted.


Well according to the Bible Jesus was always God and was thus always exalted, so it would be difficult for him to be a priest before that.  


“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness … Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father…”


That is in the first tense, John is alive & mortal and he considers himself a king and priest.


The question was where does in the Bible it say that anyone was a Melchizedek priest other than Jesus or Melchizedek?  This is a key Mormon doctrine. It should be based on more than just the word "king" or a non-specific "preist" shouldn't it?


 “ And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”


And nowhere does this passage mention Melchizedek priest.


So you’re saying you know better than God? He gave us these men of God to help guide us on the path to perfection.


God certainly gave us men help guide us, but nowhere does it say that God extended the Melchizedek priesthood to anyone other than Melchizedek or Jesus. Remember this is one of the foundational truths of the LDS church. It was a biblical concept that the early church lost, so the Mormons allege.


So where is this foundational teaching found in the Bible that the MP is conferred to anyone other than Melchizedek or Jesus?

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 9:41AM #27
Ironhold
Posts: 11,548

Joe -


You know that Gospel Principles manual you keep ignoring?


...



Baptism Gives Us a New Beginning


With baptism we begin a new way of life. That is why we call it a rebirth. Jesus said that unless we are born of the water and of the Spirit, we cannot enter the kingdom of God (see John 3:3–5). This principle was explained clearly to Adam:


“Inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten” (Moses 6:59).


The Apostle Paul said that after our baptism we should begin a new life: “We are buried with him by baptism; … even so we also should walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4). One of the great blessings of baptism is that it provides us with a new start on our way toward our eternal goal.


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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 10:24AM #28
Joe68
Posts: 289

May 2, 2012 -- 9:41AM, Ironhold wrote:


Joe -


You know that Gospel Principles manual you keep ignoring?


...



Baptism Gives Us a New Beginning


With baptism we begin a new way of life. That is why we call it a rebirth. Jesus said that unless we are born of the water and of the Spirit, we cannot enter the kingdom of God (see John 3:3–5). This principle was explained clearly to Adam:


“Inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten” (Moses 6:59).


The Apostle Paul said that after our baptism we should begin a new life: “We are buried with him by baptism; … even so we also should walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4). One of the great blessings of baptism is that it provides us with a new start on our way toward our eternal goal.






This has nothing to do with the Melchizedek Priesthood. The discussion where it would be relevant would be here

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 7:34AM #29
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,287


Iron


This is really for you cause Joe here is just going to have fits when he reads this.


There is only one priesthood which we know by the name of Melchizedek there isn’t any other. The Aaronic Priesthood is just a lesser portion of the same priesthood, right.


In 1Cor 1 Paul calls it by its real name ‘the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord’ . The Church isn’t the Church without it, "the Church” is just an earthly organization. The priesthood is the eternal organization.


Note that most of Paul writings are directed at the Brethren. I’m purposing he’s directing his comments at the priesthood brethren.


Look at Ephesians 2 speaking to the gentiles


“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise…


That would have been the Aaronic priesthood and covenants


“Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone”


That’s the Melchizedek priesthood.



Eph 3
…..How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery…Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men (priesthood leaders), as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same (priesthood ) body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel. Whereof I was made a minister (a member of the priesthood), according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his (priesthood) power...


Eph 4
“I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation/calling wherewith ye are called,(to the priesthood).…Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body (of priesthood men) and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling (in the priesthood) ….And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry (priesthood), for the edifying of the body of Christ (the sacrament)”


Eph 5


“Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God…”


That could be Pres Monson delivering the same message telling the brethren to honor their priesthood.


I’m going to start looking at all of Paul’s writing this way.

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:23AM #30
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,287

WWA; I’ve got the whole Bible behind me


Joe; If this is true then please explain:


1) Where in the bible do we find that Melchizedek conferred the priesthood on Abraham or any other OT person?


“And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth”


Melchizedek was priest of El Elyon. He has this higher priesthood, “after the order of the Son” for he gives the sacrament of bread and wine to Abraham.


Melchizedek must have given Abraham the priesthood because Jethro a descendant of Abraham is also known as Ruel or friend of El and is a priest, (remember the Aaronic priesthood does not exist yet). In Ex 18 He performs the sacrifices for Israel and also breaks bread with them or gives them the sacrament.


Now there is a whole bunch of history concerning Abraham’s family the Bible is missing. Jethro didn’t jump in there out of thin air and Moses would not have allowed a pagan to perform the sacrifice. While Israel was languishing in Egypt their cousins the Medianites were alive and well in the promised land. They must have been a fairly righteous people for they retained the priesthood up until Moses came on the seen. They were probably ripe with iniquity by then and Jethro was their last priest.


Now in Exodus 18 Jethro does something which must consist of him giving the priesthood to Moses for he says;


“I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: (take his position as Priest who petitions El) And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.”


There are at this same time other chosen to be judges in Israel.


In the next chapter the Lord speaks to Moses


“Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation..”



Note Peter quotes this passage in 1 Peter 2
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light”


Back to Ex 19
“These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel….And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded……And let the priests also, which come near to the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break forth upon them.”


Now remember the Aaronic priesthood has not be created yet, that does not happen until chapter 40.


So where did these priest come from?


2) Where in the bible do we find that Melchizedek conferred the priesthood on Peter, James, John or any of the NT disciples or apostles?


He did not for Christ was there and he is the head, he’s over Melchizedek. He called and ordained.



3) Where in the bible do we find that Melchizedek priesthood was ever held by anyone other than Jesus or Melchizedek?


I think I’ve shown it, you’re just ignoring all of the evidence because you do not want to see.

Wise men still seek him.
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