| 1 year ago :: Jan 29, 2012 - 2:18AM #21 | |
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I’m looking at your post 15 and you’re trying to tell us Mormons what we believe by pulling out a few passages and stringing them together. Not even close. IH said that the LDS are henotheists at best because they worship a central deity above all others gods. I simply pointed out that Mormon scripture showed that Jesus Christ was worshipped as well. And now you say “we worship him (i.e. Jesus) also, according to the will of the Father”. So if that is true then the LDS are polytheists and not henotheists as IH said. But then you say, While he is in their mist they pray to Jesus as mediator but once he leaves then they pray directly to the Father in the name of the Son Jesus Christ” Which sounds like LDS used to pray to Jesus (While he is in their midst) but don’t pray to him now. Re: 3 Nephi 18:20 So this seems to say you think that LDS only pray to the Father in “Jesus name”. |
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| 1 year ago :: Jan 29, 2012 - 2:25AM #22 | |
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Then you’ll have to accept the idea that No I don’t. I just have to look at the 2 dz or so passages which explicitly teach monotheism. Re: Elohim This is from Dr. Richard Hess, professor of Old Testament and Semitic languages. He has done postdoctoral research at universities in in the U.S., Europe, and the Middle East. He is a member of the Committee on Bible Translation for the New International Version. He serves as Old Testament and archaeology editor for the forthcoming NIV Study Bible. Dr. Hess has also worked for the New International Version, the New American Bible, the Holman Standard Christian Bible, the English Standard Version, and The Common English Bible translations of the Old Testament. The man knows the Hebrew language. "El” appears as a title in the Bible. Like the much more frequent “Elohim,” it derives from ancient Semitic words for “god/God.” It is true that “El” appears as the name of the chief god in the myths of Ugarit, a West Semitic (Hebrew is also a West Semitic language) city from the 13th century B.C. However, the word also appears there to refer to any deity or even a spirit. Therefore, “El” need not refer to the God of It is possible that Psalm 82 refers to the allotment of responsibilities for the management of different nations of the earth to members of the heavenly council, whom we would call angels. As a result of their failing to act with justice, God terminates their rule. Nevertheless, Yahweh is frequently identified with El (Numbers 23:22-23; 2 Samuel 23:5; Psalm 118:27; Isaiah 40:18; 43:12; 45:22; etc.). However, the Bible also recognizes El as a separate god in texts such as Ezekiel 28:2 where the leader of Tyre claims that he is El (but this is probably also another use of “El” as a title, “god”). Note that the term “sons of El” need not refer to physical sons of a god. It may refer merely to those who share the characteristics of the divine (in terms of authority and rule, for example). Compare the “sons of Belial,” in Deuteronomy 13:14; Judges 19:22; 20:13; 1 Samuel 2:12; 10;27; 25:17; 1 Kings 21:10, 13; etc. This expression does not mean that all these people had the same physical parent by the name of Belial. No, it refers to a common characteristic of all these people. There are other such examples, both within the Bible and in contemporary extra-biblical literature. By the way, the connection of Jacob with El is sometimes asserted on the basis of Jacob’s other name, “Israel,” where “El” is the last part of the name. Again, “El” is a title for god that is often used in other personal names in Israel (such as “Samuel”) and in neighboring nations. So in the Ammonite collection of personal names more than 150 contain the name “El”, but most would affirm that the chief god of Ammon was Milkom, and that “El” was a title of Milkom. One must be very careful about drawing lots of conclusions from a word that can be a title for any god in the West Semitic world. As for the statement that the God of the Hebrews had many names, one needs to distinguish between the personal name “Yahweh,” various titles of “god” such as “Elohim” and “El,” and epithets such as “Shaddai” (perhaps related to the divine council or hosts of heaven). “Elohim” does, indeed, appear by itself to be a plural form (with the -im ending). However, whenever it refers to the God of Israel, it always takes singular verbs and so is treated as a singular noun. I conclude with the observation that ancient Israelappropriated the Hebrew language and many other cultural features, often transforming them in the Bible so as to conform to its distinctive theology. The same is true of various religious practices. So the name “El” may refer to the chief god in The Holy Ghost is not an immaterial substance. Okay, I now understand the LDS position on this However in the Bible, Jesus said the Father was spirit (Jn 4:24) and that spirits do not have bodies (LK 24:39) So does one believe Jesus Christ or Joseph Smith on this matter? I didn’t even understand the Trinity formula had this immaterial substances in it until a few years ago. Actually I’ve never read a explanation of the Trinity that spoke of “immaterial substances” That element usually would fall under the doctrine of God. But I can understand the confusion for someone who has never studied Christian theology. I kept wondering how they thought these different gods of the trinity materialized inside of each other because I was trying to use my Mormon understanding to comprehend something that is incomprehensible. First, there is no such thing as "gods of the trinity". Second, if you can comprehend that the Holy Sprit can dwell in a LDS why can’t you comprehend the interdwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? |
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| 1 year ago :: Jan 29, 2012 - 9:18AM #23 | |
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John 4:24 is metaphorical. John's saying that God embodies the spiritual rather than saying he is comprised of spirit. That's a huge difference you seem to have missed. |
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| 1 year ago :: Jan 29, 2012 - 9:31AM #24 | |
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As far as the indwelling goes, what you've proposed is little more than an M. C. Escher painting; you're talking about three people simultaneously living inside of each other. |
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| 1 year ago :: Jan 30, 2012 - 9:41AM #25 | |
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| 1 year ago :: Jan 30, 2012 - 9:43AM #26 | |
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| 1 year ago :: Jan 30, 2012 - 2:35PM #27 | |
At first, it looks like a water mill is forcing water up a channel, at which point the water falls back down on to the mill and provides it with the power to keep going. However, this is merely an optical illusion. If you follow the pillars rather than the channel, you'll see that the arrangement is literally stacked on top of itself; it couldn't exist in the real life. Or for one of his earlier works, here's "Drawing Hands". The standard 3-in-1 notion of the Trinity is, essentially, on par with "Waterfall" or "Drawing Hands" in the sense that it might look good on paper but could not function in real life. At best, this is an ouroboros eating its own tail: at worst, it defies the entire function of the universe. This is because all three are simultaneously outside and inside each other at the same time, something that is impossible by any stretch of the imagination. So don't insult my intelligence by arguing that I must somehow be stupid for not agreeing with you. |
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| 1 year ago :: Jan 30, 2012 - 4:43PM #28 | |
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Posting yet another illustration of how badly you misunderstand the Trinity really does not answer the question of how one can comprehend the Holy Spirit indwelling a person but then be befuddled as to how the Father or Son can indwell. |
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| 1 year ago :: Jan 30, 2012 - 6:29PM #29 | |
It's one individual person dwelling inside individual persons. It's not a circular visage of three people each trying to cram themselves into each other at the same time. |
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| 1 year ago :: Jan 30, 2012 - 7:06PM #30 | |
And that certainly can't be any harder to understand than thinking that the LDS holy spirit is a physical being that is split up amongst millions of people throughout ther world. |
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