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Switch to Forum Live View The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent
3 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2012 - 8:03AM #11
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,064

Jan 22, 2012 -- 8:47AM, Ironhold wrote:


Jan 22, 2012 -- 1:49AM, Joe68 wrote:


Re: Again, you said "my page".


My page here at Bnet???




When on the internet, you need to clarify what you mean by "page." In fact, you need to be quite careful with your terminology to begin with, as even one flub or mistaken word and you can quite quickly become a speed bump on the internet super highway.


"My page" typically means "My webpage", which is a way of saying that you have a website, blog, or other venue that is entirely under your control.


If you're referring to something here on BNet, the correct terms are "thread" for discussions and "board" or "forum" for where specific discussions take place by topic.





Iron is right I too thought you were referring to some anti Mormon website you manage but Iron he's just asking questions and it gives us an opportunity to clear things up so don't be so confrontational. 



Speaking with the power of a grandma; you two be nice!





Wise men still seek him.
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2012 - 8:27PM #12
Joe68
Posts: 289


Jan 22, 2012 -- 7:12AM, withwonderingawe wrote:


The quote; "The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the nt. Nevertheless, the discussion above and especially the presence of trinitarian formulas in 2 Cor. 13:14 (which is strikingly early) and Matt. 28:19 indicate that the origin of this mode of thought may be found very early in Christian history"


The origins but not the actual formula; 



I think you are the few LDS who has ever admitted to me that the Trinity (Biblical Christian version) has a Biblical basis. That is the point of the HBD article. The LDS are famous for saying that the Christian Trinity was made up in 325 A.D. But the HBD, as you have admitted, shows that it does have its origins in the NT.


Jan 22, 2012 -- 7:12AM, withwonderingawe wrote:


Joe my point was the second part of that is stretching the New Testament beyond any reason. The two passages given do not teach the trinity formula at all.



I didn’t say that those two passages were all that the Trinity doctrine stands on. The Trinity is not based on just two verses.


Jan 22, 2012 -- 7:12AM, withwonderingawe wrote:

Yes anyone reading the Bible, even the Old Testament, will find a trinity of beings.



By “trinity of beings” do you mean three gods aka polytheism?


Jan 22, 2012 -- 7:12AM, withwonderingawe wrote:

Should Holland added in the rest of their reasonings…?



I think Holland should have stated the facts. The doctrine of the Trinity was developed because as people read their Bibles they came upon a conundrum.  How are we to understand three who are called God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) yet there is but one true God?  That was one of the theological discussions in the first 2 or 3 centuries of the church. How does one address this? Does one go to polytheism ala the LDS church? Sabellianism ? Or the Christian Trinity? Otherwise he is just setting up a straw man.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 23, 2012 - 8:29PM #13
Joe68
Posts: 289

Jan 22, 2012 -- 8:47AM, Ironhold wrote:


Jan 22, 2012 -- 1:49AM, Joe68 wrote:


Re: Again, you said "my page".


My page here at Bnet???




When on the internet, you need to clarify what you mean by "page." In fact, you need to be quite careful with your terminology to begin with, as even one flub or mistaken word and you can quite quickly become a speed bump on the internet super highway.


"My page" typically means "My webpage", which is a way of saying that you have a website, blog, or other venue that is entirely under your control.


If you're referring to something here on BNet, the correct terms are "thread" for discussions and "board" or "forum" for where specific discussions take place by topic.





And now you know where to find the full HBD quote.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2012 - 12:36AM #14
Ironhold
Posts: 11,349

Jan 23, 2012 -- 8:27PM, Joe68 wrote:


I think Holland should have stated the facts. The doctrine of the Trinity was developed because as people read their Bibles they came upon a conundrum.  How are we to understand three who are called God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) yet there is but one true God?  That was one of the theological discussions in the first 2 or 3 centuries of the church. How does one address this? Does one go to polytheism ala the LDS church? Sabellianism ? Or the Christian Trinity? Otherwise he is just setting up a straw man.




This goes back to where I questioned just how much independent research you've done.


You see, what the LDS church teaches is, at worst, henotheism, in which a central diety is given sole worship above all others.


What's more, henotheism shouldn't be anything new to anyone who's familiar with Jewish theology or history; there've been episodes of it in the past, and some passages in the Old Testament can be interpreted in support of such a notion.

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2 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2012 - 10:43AM #15
Joe68
Posts: 289

Jan 24, 2012 -- 12:36AM, Ironhold wrote:


Jan 23, 2012 -- 8:27PM, Joe68 wrote:


I think Holland should have stated the facts. The doctrine of the Trinity was developed because as people read their Bibles they came upon a conundrum.  How are we to understand three who are called God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) yet there is but one true God?  That was one of the theological discussions in the first 2 or 3 centuries of the church. How does one address this? Does one go to polytheism ala the LDS church? Sabellianism ? Or the Christian Trinity? Otherwise he is just setting up a straw man.




This goes back to where I questioned just how much independent research you've done.


You see, what the LDS church teaches is, at worst, henotheism, in which a central diety is given sole worship above all others.


What's more, henotheism shouldn't be anything new to anyone who's familiar with Jewish theology or history; there've been episodes of it in the past, and some passages in the Old Testament can be interpreted in support of such a notion.






Re: You see, what the LDS church teaches is, at worst henotheism, in which a central diety is given sole worship above all others.


Well that is problematic.


Prayer is one way to worship Heavenly Father”. So says LDS.org an official LDS website


When the Lord created men and placed them on earth, he gave “them commandments that they should love and serve him, THE ONLY LIVING AND TRUE GOD, and that HE SHOULD BE THE ONLY BEING WHOM THEY SHOULD WORSHIP.” (D&C 20:19.)”


Therefore since “prayer is one way to worship”, A Mormon then can “only” pray to the Father because: “he should be the ONLY being whom they should worship” and he is “the ONLY living and true God”. And, as you say, "henotheism, in which a central diety is given sole worship above all others"


“…some misguided members of the Church may ‘begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed’ with him. This is wrong, said Elder McConkie. We should pray directly to the Father…” —The Ensign, June 1998, p. 59, LDS magazine - an official LDS publication


But who did the Nephites in the Book of Mormon pray to? That would be Jesus!


“…Jesus came… he commanded his disciples that they should pray. And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.” —3 Nephi 19:15, 17-18


Who did Paul in the Bible pray to? That would be Jesus!


“…I besought the Lord thrice… And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory…that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”—2 Corinthians 12:8-9


Who did others in the NT worship? That would be Jesus!


Mathew 2:11 “And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and WORSHIPPED him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.


Mathew 14:33 “Then they that were in the ship came and WORSHIPPED him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.


Luke 24: 50-52 “And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they WORSHIPPED him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:”


So a Mormon who reads all of the LDS scriptures knows that both the Father and the Son are worshipped.


A Mormon could worship the Father alone (and not Jesus) but the Bible contradicts this view as does the the Book of Mormon.


A Mormon could worship the Jesus alone (and not the Father) but the Bible contradicts this view as does the the Book of Mormon.


A Mormon could worship the Jesus and the Father but the that is not the offical view of the LDS church but it is the view of the Bible and the the Book of Mormon. So according to the LDS Scriptures as to whom to worship (both Father and son) and according to the way the LDS view God - (Father and son are seperate gods) - the LDS view of God is polytheism



Re: What's more, henotheism shouldn't be anything new to anyone who's familiar with Jewish theology or history; there've been episodes of it in the past, and some passages in the Old Testament can be interpreted in support of such a notion.


Judaism has always said that there is only one God, but it certainly refers to other gods.

It speaks of false gods who by nature are not gods.” Galatians 4:8 NKJV

It also refers to figurative Gods. Calling someone God since he is acting on God’s behalf or has set themselves up a judge over others but they are not divine in any sense. Exodus 4:16 is an example.


And yes the Hebrews did follow “other gods” at times, either as a nation or as individuals. That doesn’t make it right that just means that they, like everyone else, is a fallen, rebellious sinner.


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2 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2012 - 11:14AM #16
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,064

By “trinity of beings” do you mean three gods aka polytheism?



Well let’s define polytheism as the worship of many false gods.


We’re not talking false gods but the oneness of God. Look at how God describes a marriage, these two shall become one flesh. They are two separate beings but they are to join into one.


In his intercessory prayer the Lord described this oneness which all Gods attain;

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one”


We not suppose to meld into one person or meld into Christ but become a group of one.


In D&C 88 Joseph expands on a Bible concept


“And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.”


There is a shared comprehension and power. In Rev 2:21 John writes;
“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”


There is only one throne or seat or power yet it shared by all who overcome.



To accept the formula of the Trinity one has to accept the concept of immaterial substance. The whole idea is totally foreign to the Bible.


The last prophet of the Old Testament MalachI informed the priest that the Lord was no longer accepting their polluted offerings. I’m going to paraphrase this passage from chapter one a little;


And you say “I pray you, beseech God/El that he will be gracious unto us: do you really think he will regard your persons? saith the Lord of hosts….I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand.


This is 400 years before Christ is even born, now in chapter 2 he says directly to the priest


“….ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the Lord of hosts…..Have we not all one father? hath not one God/El created us? ….Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the Lord/Yahweh which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.”


So these Priest and Jewish leaders were in apostasy, they were worshiping a false god which they tried to pass on to the common people by using the name of Yahweh. The trinity is an attempt to reconcile this false god with the three, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.


Margaret Barker has written a book about the Great Angle which she calls Israel second God. She says that at the time of Christ there were many different sects of Judaism, each looking at the other as heretics. We know those of the Sanhedrin were worshiping a false god but what were others worshiping.


In John 1 we see the true God being worship and waited for; I’m going to add in here the Aramaic Nathanael would have been using.


“Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of El; thou art the King of Israel/ Yahweh”


This was the true Godhead of Israel, El the Father of us all and his firstborn Yahweh/ Jesus.


For 2 thousand years now we’ve had apostate Jews rewriting their history deigning they ever worshiped the God known as El but that simply isn’t true. I have gone through the Old Testament and very literally have passage after passage showing the original supreme God of Israel was El. I really don’t think you want to see it all but I’ll give you a few.


If we put Ps 89 back into the original Hebrew it says;


"And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord?/Yahweh: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the Holy ones.
For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord/Yahweh? who among the sons of El can be likened unto the Lord/Yahweh?
El is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the Holy ones, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
O Yahweh Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?"


Did you know the Bible never refers to the sons of Yahweh but only to the Sons of El.


In Exodus Jethro a descendant of Abraham has a second name of Ruel which means friend of El. When Moses returns from Egypt he prostrates himself upon the ground in front of this Priest. He allows him to perform the sacrifices for Israel. Clearly he did not see him as a pagan priest but has a man of God. Jethro says to Moses


“And Jethro said, Blessed be the Lord/Yahweh, who hath delivered you …
Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them”


According to Jewish mythology there were 70 great sons of El, Yahweh was called and anointed by His God above his fellows and he was given the title of "Lord God of Host".


I have to end here so we can leave for a little trip I’ll return and added some more this weekend.

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2012 - 12:01PM #17
Rgurley4
Posts: 8,569

Research "Trinity in the Old Testament"...extracts


"The Triunity (Trinity) of God in The Old Testament" by Rich Deem


Some of the verses above include all members of the triunity (Isaiah 42:1, Isaiah 48:16, and Isaiah 61:1).
Therefore, the Old Testament DOES reveal the Christian concept of the Godhead,
with God being one God, consisting of three persons.
How can God simultaneously exist as both singular and plural?
It is a LOGICAL  impossibility if God were restricted
to the three dimensions of space and one dimension of time of our physical universe.
However, the ATTRIBUTES of God, given by the Bible,
provide a reasonable explanation of how this paradox can be resolved.
For more information, see The Extradimensional Nature of God.



www.godandscience.org/apologetics/triuni...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"A Multi-Personal God"
an (Chapter 7) exerpt from Robert Morey, "The Trinity: Evidences and Issues",
World Publishing, Grand Rapids, 1996, ISBN 0-529-10692-2



Conclusion
The material presented in this chapter demonstrates that the one true God of Scripture was conceived of by the Patriarchs and the prophets as being "multi-personal". The fundamental principle of the doctrine of the Trinity has been verified by the Old Testament.



www.answering-islam.org/God/echad.html

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2 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2012 - 2:57PM #18
Joe68
Posts: 289

Re: Well let’s define polytheism as the worship of many false gods.


WWA, Well, let’s not define polytheism that way since I can’t find any source that does so.


Merriam Webster - belief in or worship of more than one god


Dictionary.com  - the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.


The free Dictionary - a belief in, or worship of, many gods


None of them say anything about “false” gods.


Re: To accept the formula of the Trinity one has to accept the concept of immaterial substance. The whole idea is totally foreign to the Bible.


An interesting objection coming from a member of the LDs church.


The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. D&C 130:22


So here we have LDS scriptures teaching that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit and dwells within a LDS.


And the spirit and the body are the soul of man” D&C 88:15


And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. Abraham 5:7


Here we have LDS scriptures teaching that a LDS is made up of spirit and body.  


If the Holy Spirit can be an immaterial substance why can't the Father?  


However if it is your position that a “spirit” is not an immaterial substance then we should be able to see not only a LDS’s spirit but also the Holy Spirits. Do you have anything that confirms this? A picture would be great.  


 Re: For 2 thousand years now we’ve had apostate Jews rewriting their history deigning they ever worshiped the God known as El but that simply isn’t true. I have gone through the Old Testament and very literally have passage after passage showing the original supreme God of Israel was El. I really don’t think you want to see it all but I’ll give you a few.


If you are saying that the original Hebrews were polytheists I say that would be a given that most were since they were called out of a polytheistic culture and religion by Jehovah. And there is the Biblical evidence that some did fall back into serving "other gods".   


As for "El", are you a Hebrew scholar? If not I’d rather you point me in the direction of one who has the credentials in the field as Hebrew is a difficult language to learn. Dr. Richard S. Hess a professor of Old Testament and Semitic Languages wrote an article on the subject. I’ll see if I can find it

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2 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2012 - 4:02PM #19
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,064

Joe; WWA, Well, let’s not define polytheism that way since I can’t find any source that does so.



Then you’ll have to accept the idea that Israel was polytheistic and polytheism is the worship of the true Elohims/Gods of the Bible.



Joe; If the Holy Spirit can be an immaterial substance why can't the Father?


You’re missing one important piece of doctrine.


“There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes” D&C 131:7


The Holy Ghost is not an immaterial substance.


I didn’t even understand the Trinity formula had this immaterial substances in it until a few years ago. I kept wondering how they thought these different gods of the trinity materialized inside of each other because I was trying to use my Mormon understanding to comprehend something that is incomprehensible.


But then when I understood that this was some kind of thinking nonsubstance without atoms which magically appears like Cinderella’s fairy godmother then it sort of came together for me.


Certainly isn’t the God of the Bible!

Wise men still seek him.
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2012 - 12:34AM #20
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,064

Joe



I’m looking at your post 15 and you’re trying to tell us Mormons what we believe by pulling out a few passages and stringing them together.


That’s not true scholarship.


You quoted D&C 20:19 but let’s put it into context


“And gave unto them (Adam &Eve) commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.


But by the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man.


Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, ….He was crucified, died, and rose again the third day; And ascended into heaven, to sit down on the right hand of the Father, to reign with almighty power according to the will of the Father;…….As well as those who should come after, who should believe in the gifts and callings of God by the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and of the Son;…Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.


So if the fall had never occurred then Jesus and his sacrifice would not have been needed and we would have worshiped only the Father but since the Father in his infinite wisdom and foreknowledge knew man would fall he pre-ordained his firstborn to be his Only Begotten and we worship him also, “according to the will of the Father”



Elder McConkie was addressing a certain heresy which was arising in the Church where some felt they should have a special relationship with Christ that went beyond the bounds of revenant awe. They were singling out Christ above the Father when it was Christ who taught we should pray "Our Father who art in Heaven"



In your 3 Nephi 19 quote you miss a very important line;


Jesus is praying to the Father and he explains;


“…and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.”


There is something about the line of authority, Christ is the mediator between man and El. While he is in their mist they pray to Jesus as mediator but once he leaves then they pray directly to the Father in the name of the Son Jesus Christ. I’m not sure why this is but it seems to be the rule laid out by Christ.



Now here’s a passage which you did not mention; Jesus to the people in the chapter before the one you quoted.


“Therefore ye must always pray unto the Father in my name; And whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you.”

Wise men still seek him.
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