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Switch to Forum Live View The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent
3 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 11:43AM #51
Ironhold
Posts: 11,490

Feb 2, 2012 -- 11:05AM, Joe68 wrote:


It shouldn’t surprise anyone that there are similarities between Christianity and the Mormon religion. Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon based most of their theology on the Campbellites who based most of theirs on Protestant Christianity.  




200. "People will agree with LDS theology until they find out just whose theology they're agreeing with" should not be abused for personal enrichment.

201. Nor should it be abused for personal enjoyment.

202. Especially if the chaos so unleashed results in the server crashing again.


LDS Skippy's List, pt. 4


Yeah - you just walked right into that one.


You see, rather than admit that the church might have something right, your knee-jerk reaction was to accuse us of stealing something. In the process, not only did you diss the church, you also dissed the Campbellite movement.


As it is, I find myself wondering if you've ever sat down and read the Athanasian Creed all the way through; as someone who's read both legal documents and theological documents, it comes off as more of the former than the latter.


What “digging” has WWA done? What “digging” have you done? What scholars have either of you cited for WWA’s view of “elohim”? None, none, and none seem to be the answers.


To begin with, I've actually read the official church material on the topic, something you've effectively refused to do. So when I speak of the church's stance and theology on most topics, I actually know what I'm talking about.


Furthermore, if you'll note, we've actually tried to reason from the scriptures themselves; you've responded in each instance by going "Hess says this!".


How's that?

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 1:01PM #52
Joe68
Posts: 289

Care to apologize now?


Apologize for what?


I said that you seemingly accept WWA's view (a single source) w/o any reservations!


Seemingly = So as to give the impression of having a certain quality.


When you criticize me for bolstering my view by listing one scholar – though it is up to three now - while not criticizing WWA, who cites no scholars, you give the impression that you believe her position is correct or at least more reasonable.  


This is what I'm talking about when I question your over-dependence on Hess.


First I’ve mentioned two other scholars. A fact which you fail to acknowledge.


Second, Hess is a man who has earned a doctorate in the filed under discussion. His summarily rejection by both you and WWA shows the strength of his position as WWA nor yourself can not think of any other course of action to deal with what he says. The weakness of WWA’s position is blindingly obvious.


I want you to go back and read the Bible, this time making note of places where the authors were being literal and places in which they weren't.


Oh sure I’ll get right on that.


The fact is WWA pulled on a couple of verves that mention God’s hand. From that she extrapolated that God has a body.


I listed about a dozen verses – The one “as a hen” verse that you continue to refer to was NOT one of them but I’m sure you already know that – which would have God being a rock, fortress, stream of water, a song, having wings, and etc.


Try as you might to shift the burden of proof onto me, it is upon her to reconcile these verses to her view, which she has not done. So it seems she is selectively citing verses.


As an aside, mind explaining 1 John 3:2 if God doesn't have any sort of form?


Simply put, John was talking about Jesus.


Now, if one was of the Mormon religion, who believes that God the Father 1) was a man with a flesh and bone body who 2) gained his godhood through “progression” and then 3) had sexual relations with 4) a mother god to 5) beget spirit children in heaven, who then took on flesh and bone bodies here on earth then when they are reunited with the LDS god then, yes a LDS would expect to see a god with a body.


But 1-5 are all foreign to the Bible.


You see, rather than admit that the church might have something right, your knee-jerk reaction was to accuse us of stealing something. In the process, not only did you diss the church, you also dissed the Campbellite movement.


I've never said the LDS has everything wrong. But the fact is Christianity started 1800 years before the Mormon religion. The fact is the LDS church based a lot of their theology on the Campbellite movement. I didn’t say steal, I said “based on”, but if you want to define it as stealing then so be it. Your words not mine.


To begin with, I've actually read the official church material on the topic, something you've effectively refused to do.


Actually I’ve read GP, BoM, AoF, PGP, D&C, Ensign, and various articles by LDS leaders.  


Furthermore, if you'll note, we've actually tried to reason from the scriptures themselves; you've responded in each instance by going "Hess says this!"


Hmm the only time I ever mentioned Hess was in regards to WWA’s stance on Elohim. So I'm not sure what conversation you are speaking about.


Now I’m going to call you out on this one. Please cite where you and I have ever had a conversation where you “tried to reason from the scriptures” with me and my response was essentially, "Hess says this"

This is another complete fabrication on your part, Ironhold.  Shameful, but not exactly unprecedented on your part.


How's that?


Terrible.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 6:10PM #53
Ironhold
Posts: 11,490

If you've read anything LDS, then surely you're aware of the Topical Guide, right?


If not, then here's a relevant entry to look at - Topical Guide; God - Body of; Corporeal Nature


Note all the passages in the Bible itself that state humanity was made in God's image.


Note the passages in which God is literally referred to as speaking.


Have any response to that?

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 6:14PM #54
Ironhold
Posts: 11,490

Oh, you might also want to lay off the Decker; dude's made such a fool of himself that even other anti-Mormons want nothing to do with him.


Feb 2, 2012 -- 1:01PM, Joe68 wrote:


Now, if one was of the Mormon religion, who believes that God the Father 1) was a man with a flesh and bone body who 2) gained his godhood through “progression” and then 3) had sexual relations with 4) a mother god to 5) beget spirit children in heaven, who then took on flesh and bone bodies here on earth then when they are reunited with the LDS god then, yes a LDS would expect to see a god with a body.




Actually, it's never been explicitly stated that sex of any sort took place; that one all comes down to Decker, who in real life had issues keeping it in his pants.


Rather, the issue has simply never been discussed.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2012 - 12:40AM #55
Joe68
Posts: 289

Feb 2, 2012 -- 6:14PM, Ironhold wrote:


Oh, you might also want to lay off the Decker; dude's made such a fool of himself that even other anti-Mormons want nothing to do with him.


Feb 2, 2012 -- 1:01PM, Joe68 wrote:


Now, if one was of the Mormon religion, who believes that God the Father 1) was a man with a flesh and bone body who 2) gained his godhood through “progression” and then 3) had sexual relations with 4) a mother god to 5) beget spirit children in heaven, who then took on flesh and bone bodies here on earth then when they are reunited with the LDS god then, yes a LDS would expect to see a god with a body.




Actually, it's never been explicitly stated that sex of any sort took place; that one all comes down to Decker, who in real life had issues keeping it in his pants.


Rather, the issue has simply never been discussed.





Good to know.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2012 - 12:40AM #56
Joe68
Posts: 289

Feb 2, 2012 -- 6:10PM, Ironhold wrote:


If you've read anything LDS, then surely you're aware of the Topical Guide, right?


If not, then here's a relevant entry to look at - Topical Guide; God - Body of; Corporeal Nature


Note all the passages in the Bible itself that state humanity was made in God's image.


Note the passages in which God is literally referred to as speaking.


Have any response to that?





Not so fast there IH, I said I was calling you out, Please cite where you and I have ever had a conversation where you “tried to reason from the scriptures” with me and my response was essentially, "Hess says this"


Have any response to that?

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2012 - 3:10AM #57
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,183

Joe; What “digging” has WWA done? What “digging” have you done? What scholars have either of you cited for WWA’s view of “elohim”? None, none, and none seem to be the answers.



Most of my understanding comes from Margaret Barker,


Her Bio;
Margaret Barker is a Methodist preacher, she was elected President of the Society for Old Testament Study in 1998, and is currently the Editor of the Society Â’s Monograph Series. She has written 13 books. She has been part of the symposium Religion, Science and the Environment, convened by His All Holiness Bartholomew I, the Ecumenical Patriarch. In July 2008 she was awarded a DD by the Archbishop of Canterbury.


I don’t know, that all sounds important.



The following is a good synopsis of her theory;


vridar.wordpress.com/2008/09/16/who-the-...


……But to finish off chapter 2 of Margaret Barker’s Great Angel/Israel’s Second God . . . .
Continuing from Israel’s Second God, ch. 2 contd . . . .


It has widely been accepted among scholars that El was the most ancient name for God and that this name was later replaced by Yahweh. The patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew God as El, but from the time of Moses and the Exodus he was known as Yahweh.


Exodus 3:15


Yahweh, the God [El] of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob has sent me to you; this is my name for ever, and thus [as Yahweh] I am to be remembered throughout all generations.


Exodus 6:2-3


I am Yahweh. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai, but by my name Yahweh I did not make myself known to them.


Names for god such as El Shaddai appear in “early stories” in Genesis and Exodus, and in ancient poetry such as found in the Balaam oracles in Numbers 24.


But Margaret Barker points to a problem with this idea:


The name of EL is used more often in texts from later periods, especially from the time of the Babylonian exile, such as in – - -


Second Isaiah


Job


Later Psalms


Daniel


Apocalyptic writings


Hellenistic Jewish literature


If it were the more ancient name that had been replaced by Yahweh, then why does it not eventually disappear? Why is it used more often at a later period in the texts listed above?


Explanations (or ad hoc rationalizations?) proposed hitherto to explain this “anomaly” include:


a cultural interest in reviving old liturgical forms


vicissitudes of fashion


influence of the Hellenistic Zeus Hypsistos


Barker suggests another explanation:


Maybe El never fell out of use at all.


Maybe there were many who resisted the attempted reforms of the Yahwists and Deuteronomists when they attempted to displace (or merge) El with Yahweh.


Maybe those who maintained their independence from the Deuteronomists continued to think of the god El and the god Yahweh as a separate deities all along, perhaps even as Father and Son gods….”




As I began to understand her theory it was a light turning on and I started to look at the Bible in a whole new light. In the first place you have the last Prophet of the Old Testament berating the Jews because they have started worshiping a strange god and proclaiming


“Have we not all one father? hath not one El created us?”


And then there is Nathanael proclaiming;


“Rabbi, thou art the Son of El; thou art the King of Israel/Yahweh.



But let us exam the word God, I’m using Strongs Bible Concordance.


The word Elohim is unique among all words and it teaches us about the oneness of God.


Sometimes in the scriptures it is written El and is literally the name of the supreme God/Father as we have seen in Mal 1&2 but sometimes it is written El meaning a state of being.


Sometimes it is written Elohim which is plural but with the intent of being singular because of the singular noun found in the sentence but then sometimes it means literally Gods because there is no singular non and at times has “us” and “our” attached.



2 Sam 22 is a good example of these 4 usages. This poem is written by David after winning a battle against the pagan Philistines who worship Dagon a son or grandson of El. Knowing that puts this poem into context.



“The Lord/Yahweh is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
The God/Elohim(s) of my rock; in him will I trust”


First thought; Yahweh/Jesus has a God. Just as he said in John 20


“ I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”


Elohim is rendered singular because of the singular noun “him”.


In verses 7-30 David refers to Yahweh as his God but using the plural form.


“In my distress I called upon the Lord/Yahweh, and cried to my God/Elohim(s): and he did hear my voice out of his temple”


El was never in their temple only Yahweh.



In verse 31 there begins to be a subtle but major change;


“As for God/El, his way is perfect; the word of the Lord/Yahweh is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.”


He’s speaking of El the supreme Father but then he switches to a state of being


“For who is God/El, save the Lord/Yahweh? and who is a rock, save our Gods/Elohim(s)?


He asking a reverse question and revering to Ps 89, the reader knows Dagon the god of the Philistines is not a God,


“For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?ps 89


Then he goes back to using the name El; “God/El is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect.”


In verse 36 David address El


“Thou (El) hast also given me the shield of thy salvation (meaning Yawheh): and thy gentleness hath made me great….They looked (to their false god Dagon), but there was none to save; even unto the Lord/Yahweh, but he answered them not”


And then he says;


The Lord/Yahweh liveth; (Dragon does not) and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the Elohim of the rock of my salvation.
It is God/El that avengeth me, and that bringeth down the people under me…”



I believe if we had lived during his David's age and heard him utter this poem we would have understood each of the phrases by the wording and changes in his tone of voice. It’s all lost on us today.



It is the usage as a plural which I think reflects the oneness of God.


Gen 1 is a good example of this idea;


“In the beginning (the) Gods created the heaven and the earth…. And (the) Gods said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness… So God created man in his own image, in the image of Gods created he him; male and female created he them”


The “us” and “our” renders Elohim Gods but the singular noun “his” changes it back to a single God.


And so Joe there is our Mother in Heaven.


Israel kept reverting to idol worship which included the worship of the female goddess Asherah who was the wife to El and mother of the sons of El. Over and over again they would place her poles within the temple or create groves for her worship. This worship would become extremely deviant, not good at all. The different prophets would come along and remover her symbols and tear down her goves. 


BUT Abraham also worshiped in his own grove.


“And Abraham planted a grove in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God.” Gen 21:33




I’ve read several articles about the Jewish Menorah and how it is really a very ancient symbol for the Tree of Life which brought wisdom to mankind. Wisdom is referred to as a “she” in Proverbs. If our Father gave us his Son to atone for us so too did our Mother, thus the Tree of Life is her symbol.    




I believe the word Elohim is like the word quorum and explains the oneness of God. There can be many members of a quorum yet they act as one unit or united group.


Elohim is a quorum made up of El the Father, our Mother in Heaven and these two are one flesh, the Son/Yahweh, the Holy Spirit (another son) and then all who overcome and inherit all things.

Wise men still seek him.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2012 - 5:07PM #58
Ironhold
Posts: 11,490

Feb 3, 2012 -- 12:40AM, Joe68 wrote:


Good to know.




J. Edward Decker joined the church some time during the 1960s because he wanted to marry someone who was Mormon.


However, Decker had trouble keeping a steady job, forcing the family to constantly relocate while he looked for work.


Rather than turning to God for help, Decker turned to a string of mistresses. His wife, who had tried to take him back after earlier confessions, finally dropped the hammer on him: not only did she file for divorce (she came forward in the early 1990s with her copy of the paperwork), she also notified their current clergy.


Details of what happened next don't quite agree, but the gist is that Decker soon found himself in a situation to where it was either "withdraw his membership" or "get kicked out".


Decker ultimately followed his latest homewrecker into her Protestant congregation, but needed an excuse to explain why he was no longer Mormon. Decker responded to questions by, basically, lying through his teeth. His lies caught the attention of his new congregants, and in time he found that he could make a living by telling lies to others.


Decker's lies about the church are so obvious and so odious that even fellow anti-Mormons like Carl Mosser and Jerald & Sandra Tanner have turned on him, but people still believe him anyway.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2012 - 5:08PM #59
Ironhold
Posts: 11,490

Feb 3, 2012 -- 12:40AM, Joe68 wrote:


Feb 2, 2012 -- 6:10PM, Ironhold wrote:


If you've read anything LDS, then surely you're aware of the Topical Guide, right?


If not, then here's a relevant entry to look at - Topical Guide; God - Body of; Corporeal Nature


Note all the passages in the Bible itself that state humanity was made in God's image.


Note the passages in which God is literally referred to as speaking.


Have any response to that?





Not so fast there IH, I said I was calling you out, Please cite where you and I have ever had a conversation where you “tried to reason from the scriptures” with me and my response was essentially, "Hess says this"


Have any response to that?




This is my first time today that I've had a chance to get back on BNet, and might also be my only time today.


I'll have to get back to you.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 03, 2012 - 11:16PM #60
Joe68
Posts: 289

Feb 3, 2012 -- 5:07PM, Ironhold wrote:


Feb 3, 2012 -- 12:40AM, Joe68 wrote:


Good to know.




J. Edward Decker joined the church some time during the 1960s because he wanted to marry someone who was Mormon.


However, Decker had trouble keeping a steady job, forcing the family to constantly relocate while he looked for work.


Rather than turning to God for help, Decker turned to a string of mistresses. His wife, who had tried to take him back after earlier confessions, finally dropped the hammer on him: not only did she file for divorce (she came forward in the early 1990s with her copy of the paperwork), she also notified their current clergy.


Details of what happened next don't quite agree, but the gist is that Decker soon found himself in a situation to where it was either "withdraw his membership" or "get kicked out".


Decker ultimately followed his latest homewrecker into her Protestant congregation, but needed an excuse to explain why he was no longer Mormon. Decker responded to questions by, basically, lying through his teeth. His lies caught the attention of his new congregants, and in time he found that he could make a living by telling lies to others.


Decker's lies about the church are so obvious and so odious that even fellow anti-Mormons like Carl Mosser and Jerald & Sandra Tanner have turned on him, but people still believe him anyway.





I suppose I sholud have been more specific. My "good to know" comment was in reference to your "Actually, it's never been explicitly stated that sex of any sort took place, comment.


As for Decker, I don't think I've ever read anything by him.

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