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Switch to Forum Live View How would JWs deal with being incorrect about Matthew 24:45-47?
3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2011 - 1:18PM #31
Imperfectense
Posts: 3,329

Mar 9, 2011 -- 1:15PM, Phronesis wrote:

Mar 9, 2011 -- 1:08PM, Imperfectense wrote:


Mar 9, 2011 -- 1:04PM, Phronesis wrote:


And you are certainly free to express your opinion, but if you wish to debate the facts the Debate Board is the place for that.




No opinions, just stating the undisputable facts.  If you find an error in my facts then lets take it to the debate board otherwise there is no debate.




Those are not facts, they are your opinions. This too is a FACT.




Look, like you said this is NOT the debate board yet YOU are debating...if you find error in the facts I presented then take it to the Debate and Discuss board ...OK?!


Actually I already have


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...

WTS Bible Dictionary Insight-2 p. 1132 Truth
"Being “the spirit of the truth,” God’s holy spirit could never be the source of error but would protect Christ’s followers from doctrinal falsehoods. (Compare 1Jo 2:27; 4:1-6.)...)

Watchtower 1987 11/1 p. 29 Religion’s Tidal Wave—The Final Reckoning
Examine the religious institution to which you belong. Does what it stands for agree with the Bible in every way? If not, then your organization is part of “Babylon the Great,” or the world empire of false religion. Follow the command found at Revelation 18:4, which is: “Get out of her, my people, . . . if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2011 - 1:45PM #32
Phronesis
Posts: 2,229

I just went ahead and began a brand new thread on the debate board:


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...

"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen ... ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, that I am God." - Isaiah 43:10, 12, ASV.
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2011 - 8:35PM #33
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Mar 9, 2011 -- 7:57AM, Phronesis wrote:


FACT: There are a group of people around the world who identify themselves as being of the anointed Body of Christ. 


FACT: These are represented by a small number of persons we call "The Governing Body."


FACT: This group takes the lead in spearheading the ministry around the world as Jesus both prophesied and commanded. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20)


FACT: These also take the lead in obeying the command Jesus gave in an illustrative way in Matthew 24:45-47, in caring for the spiritual needs of his household.


Therefore the Scriptural evidence supports that these ones mentioned above are indeed the FDS spoken of by Jesus. I cannot see how this FDS can possibly be any other group of persons than those described above, and in my mind the evidence proves conclusively that this is exactly who they are. However, if I am wrong about this, that in no way alters the aforementioned facts.


Furthermore, we believe that these ones are made up of the remaining ones of the 144K discussed previously, and that this 144K is a literal number. Again, Scriptural evidence backs this up. However, should our understanding be wrong on either count, that still does not alter the aforementioned facts as outlined above.


It is precisely because of the FACTS mentioned above along with other Scriptures and so forth that we believe the conclusions that follow.




I'm sorry, Phronesis, but what you're describing sounds more like the 'guesses' and the 'best estimates' of men....rather than absolute facts and truth.


On one hand you are saying that "evidence" supports 'this' and 'that' and that the evidence "proves conclusively" 'this' or 'that'....but then on the other hand, you say that if you are wrong about 'this' or 'that,' then that still does not alter the aforementioned facts as outlined above. ....If you are wrong about this???? How can you be wrong about something that 'evidence' supports or 'proves conclusively,' when by definition, words such as "evidence" and "proven" denote truth and fact?


dictionary.reference.com/browse/proven


dictionary.reference.com/browse/evidence 


Therefore, it seems like it would have been more accurate for you to have said:


Therefore the Scriptural evidence scriptures seem to supports that these ones mentioned above are indeed the FDS spoken of by Jesus. I cannot see how this FDS can possibly be any other group of persons than those described above, and in my mind the evidence proves conclusively our interpretation of the scripures tell us that this is exactly who they are. However, if I am wrong about this, that in no way alters our the aforementioned facts opinions.


Furthermore, we believe that these ones are made up of the remaining ones of the 144K discussed previously, and that this 144K is a literal number. Again, Scriptural evidence our scriptural interpretation seems to backs this up. However, should our understanding be wrong on either count, that still does not alter our the aforementioned opinions facts as outlined above.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2011 - 6:25AM #34
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Feb 23, 2011 -- 11:02PM, Ed2 wrote:


Feb 21, 2011 -- 11:29PM, Newtonian wrote:


Ed - You posted:'


"Also, what are the non-Governing Body members of the anointed doing differently than the "other sheep" class of JWs to demonstrate that they are setting the example in the preaching, disciple making, and the building up of one another at the meetings?


Same with Zechariah 8:23"


Essentially: nothing.  As Zechariah 8:23 says:


(Zechariah 8:20-23) . . .This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will yet be that peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will come; 21 and the inhabitants of one [city] will certainly go to [those of] another, saying: “Let us earnestly go to soften the face of Jehovah and to seek Jehovah of armies. I myself will go also.” 22 And many peoples and mighty nations will actually come to seek Jehovah of armies in Jerusalem and to soften the face of Jehovah.’ 23 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: “We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people.”’”


Since people of all nations go with spiritual Israel, they end up doing the same things as a result of seeking Jehovah.


Isaiah explains this with additional details:


(Isaiah 2:2-4) And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.


So, for example, both the anointed and the other sheep learn war no more.


Remember, the bride (= the anointed) took the lead in witnessing, but all who hear then join them in saying:



(Revelation


 So, for example, I am not part of the bride, but I have heard the invitation from the bride and thus join them in saying "Come!"


Of course, our free home Bible study offer involves taking life's water free!  Cp. John 6:63 - Jesus' sayings are spirit and life - and these are an important part of Bible study among us.


22:17) And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.




So, Newtonian, how long are the non-Governing Body members of the anointed class suppose to  
be saying "Come"?




Newtonian, I had been wanting to post to tell you that you actually did give adequate answers to  my questions, however, I just don't have the faith and the trust that you have in the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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3 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2011 - 1:09PM #35
Newtonian
Posts: 11,987

Jan 25, 2011 -- 4:00AM, Ed2 wrote:


Thank you for your replies, Knowsnothing, Kianna, and Phronesis.


Also, Kianna, you said:


Jan 23, 2011 -- 11:09PM, Kianna wrote:


JW's are not incorrect in their interpretation and application of Matthew 24:45-47. 




However, I don't think that all JWs feel that way.





Indeed Kianna is correct, and virtually all of Jehovah's Witnesses agree.


We are in a veritable spiritual paradise - in fact it is hard to keep up with the flow of spiritual truth - it is a feast!

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2011 - 1:24PM #36
Newtonian
Posts: 11,987

Apr 28, 2011 -- 6:25AM, Ed2 wrote:


Feb 23, 2011 -- 11:02PM, Ed2 wrote:


Feb 21, 2011 -- 11:29PM, Newtonian wrote:


Ed - You posted:'

"Also, what are the non-Governing Body members of the anointed doing differently than the "other sheep" class of JWs to demonstrate that they are setting the example in the preaching, disciple making, and the building up of one another at the meetings?

Same with Zechariah 8:23"

Essentially: nothing.  As Zechariah 8:23 says:

(Zechariah 8:20-23) . . .This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will yet be that peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will come; 21 and the inhabitants of one [city] will certainly go to [those of] another, saying: “Let us earnestly go to soften the face of Jehovah and to seek Jehovah of armies. I myself will go also.” 22 And many peoples and mighty nations will actually come to seek Jehovah of armies in Jerusalem and to soften the face of Jehovah.’ 23 “This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘It will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a Jew, saying: “We will go with YOU people, for we have heard [that] God is with YOU people.”’”

Since people of all nations go with spiritual Israel, they end up doing the same things as a result of seeking Jehovah.

Isaiah explains this with additional details:

(Isaiah 2:2-4) And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

So, for example, both the anointed and the other sheep learn war no more.

Remember, the bride (= the anointed) took the lead in witnessing, but all who hear then join them in saying:


(Revelation

 So, for example, I am not part of the bride, but I have heard the invitation from the bride and thus join them in saying "Come!"

Of course, our free home Bible study offer involves taking life's water free!  Cp. John 6:63 - Jesus' sayings are spirit and life - and these are an important part of Bible study among us.

22:17) And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.



So, Newtonian, how long are the non-Governing Body members of the anointed class suppose to  
be saying "Come"?



Newtonian, I had been wanting to post to tell you that you actually did give adequate answers to  my questions, however, I just don't have the faith and the trust that you have in the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.




Thank you Ed.  Well I trust the Goverrning body that they love us (me included) and that they love the Scriptures and are loyal to the Scriptures and hence loyal to Jehovah - it is really not just trust  - it is experiencing their love and loyalty to the Scriptures.


Here is a little from our book on Acts which I can testify is true: ["Bearing Thorough Witness About God's Kingdom," 2009, pp. 110, 137-138, 105.]


  The Governing Body relies on God’s holy spirit for direction. Its members do not regard themselves as the leaders of Jehovah’s people. Rather, like all anointed Christians on earth, they “keep following the Lamb [Jesus Christ] no matter where he goes.”—Rev. 14:4. - page 110.


"Though the Beroeans were hearing something new, they were not suspicious or harshly critical; neither were they gullible. First, they listened carefully to what Paul had to say. Then, they verified what they had learned by turning to the Scriptures, which Paul had opened up to their understanding. Moreover, they diligently studied the Word of God, not just on the Sabbath, but daily. And they did so with great “eagerness of mind,” devoting themselves to finding out what the Scriptures revealed in light of this new teaching. Then, they proved humble enough to make changes, for “many of them became believers.” (Acts 17:12) No wonder Luke describes them as “noble-minded”!



17 Little did those Beroeans realize that the record of their reaction to the good news would be preserved in God’s Word as a shining example of spiritual noble-mindedness. They did precisely what Paul had hoped they would do and what Jehovah God wanted them to do. Likewise, it is what we encourage people to do—to examine the Bible carefully so that their faith is solidly based on God’s Word. After we become believers, though, does the need to be noble-minded come to an end? On the contrary, it becomes ever more important that we be eager to learn from Jehovah and quick to apply his teachings. In that way, we allow Jehovah to mold us and train us according to his will. (Isa. 64:8) We thus remain useful and fully pleasing to our heavenly Father. - pp, 137-138


[Box on page 105]
‘JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES BUILD THEIR BELIEFS ON THE BIBLE’
  As amply demonstrated in the case of the early Christian congregation, the history of true worship is a record of progressive spiritual enlightenment. (Prov. 4:18; Dan. 12:4, 9, 10; Acts 15:7-9) Today, too, Jehovah’s people adjust their beliefs to conform to revealed truth; they do not force the Scriptures to fit their views. Impartial observers have recognized this fact. In his book Truth in Translation, Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University in the United States, wrote that Jehovah’s Witnesses approach the Bible “with a kind of innocence, and [build] their system of belief and practice from the raw material of the Bible without predetermining what was to be found there.”

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3 years ago  ::  Sep 10, 2011 - 9:41PM #37
Ed2
Posts: 3,322

Aug 27, 2011 -- 1:24PM, Newtonian wrote:


Here is a little from our book on Acts which I can testify is true: ["Bearing Thorough Witness About God's Kingdom," 2009, pp. 110, 137-138, 105.]


[...]


Likewise, it is what we encourage people to do—to examine the Bible carefully so that their faith is solidly based on God’s Word... - pp, 137-138




 


Yes, but sometimes when people examine the Bible carefully, sometimes they find things that make people run away.


 

I think that it's pretty sad and pretty unbelievable that there are so many healthy, powerful, and healing foods that I have learned about from watching "The Doctor Oz Show"...but unfortunately, most Americans from their childhood on up, have only learned how to eat what is essentially equivalent to 'garbage'...and are basically in a 'slumber' when it comes to not having a clue as to what that kind of food is doing to their bodies and to their health. It's really sad.

~Ed2

"Hmmm. So you're saying that for Jesus' followers(throughout the centuries) to truly live a 'godly' life, they had to believe that the end of the world was just around the corner?"

~Ed2(See post #53)

"Although, I think that I'll change that to: Also...I liked the way that you dodged what I had said about being 'concerned that the Bible had to use subterfuge as a means to an end' in my post #137."

~Ed2(See post #145)

"It's utterly beyond belief, that the wealthiest country in the history of the world, fails to care for all it's people."

~Dr. Patrick Dowling, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 11/23/11.)

"If I could prescribe any drug on the planet, it would be food [be]cause it works better, faster, and cheaper than any medication. Food is the most powerful medicine we have...to treat chronic disease like diabetes."

~Dr. Mark Hyman, MD(From The Doctor Oz Show, which aired on 01/13/12. Also, go to www.doctoroz.com for more information.)
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