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Switch to Forum Live View Why wasn't Jesus of Nazareth "Christ" the messiah?
4 years ago  ::  Jan 02, 2011 - 2:19AM #1
dlj22414
Posts: 1

  I am a devoted protestant ive grown up with the only knowledge about jews having generally the same beliefs as myself except that Jews do not believe that Jesus wasn't the messiah. Correct me if im wrong but i was taught the reason was because Jesus was not of a High status... not a "true" king... what man's king is supposed so be.


  If this is true doesn't He (God) say a mans thoughts are foolish but a mans thought of God are wise? Im sorry if i have insulted anyone I'm just very currious. But what im saying is haven't people of the Jewish faith though about that? 


  Please respond. I want to clear this up.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 02, 2011 - 11:01AM #2
ffb
Posts: 2,125

Jan 2, 2011 -- 2:19AM, dlj22414 wrote:


  I am a devoted protestant ive grown up with the only knowledge about jews having generally the same beliefs as myself except that Jews do not believe that Jesus wasn't the messiah. Correct me if im wrong but i was taught the reason was because Jesus was not of a High status... not a "true" king... what man's king is supposed so be.


  If this is true doesn't He (God) say a mans thoughts are foolish but a mans thought of God are wise? Im sorry if i have insulted anyone I'm just very currious. But what im saying is haven't people of the Jewish faith though about that? 


  Please respond. I want to clear this up.




I am not sure where you got the issue of "high" status - the Jewish messiah will be a man who will attain high status through his actions and nature. It isn't that he is born a king.


But the general question is a fair one. The Jewish messiah will be a leader who will inspire others through righteousness and help usher in a new age. There are some specific prophecies that need to be filled, and certain actions which need to happen (and which didn't 2000 years ago) but I'm not sure if your question is focused on the general "why didn't Jesus qualify", the more specific "why don't Jews accept Jesus" or the very specific question about man's thoughts.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 02, 2011 - 10:31PM #3
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Sadly, it appears you have been woefully misinformed about Judaism. Judaism is not "Christianity minus Jesus." While we share a certain canon of sacred texts in common, there are numerous differences between us and the interpretation of those texts.


As ffb has said, the question of why Jews do not accept Jesus as having been the Messiah is because he did not fulfill the prophecies that the Messiah is supposed to do. The fact that we have not, over the past 2000 years, been living in a new golden age of universal peace and justice, and that only since 1948 have the Jewish people enjoyed independence and sovereignty over a portion of the Land of Israel is evidence that the Messiah has not yet come. 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 03, 2011 - 10:17PM #4
Pam34
Posts: 2,649

It may also be worth pointing out that, while the concept of 'the messiah' and the 'end of days' or 'the messianic age' are very important in Christianity, they are of much lesser importance to Judaism and the Jews.


 


Invariably, when I speak to Christian groups, I am asked 'but what do you have to believe to be saved?' and just as invariably, I have to stop and give them a basic lesson in Judaism before I can even BEGIN to answer that question - because it is not very important to Judaism at all, and rarely even thought about in any meaningful way - neither the messiah, nor the salvation concept, nor even the notion of required 'belief'.


 


 

Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 05, 2011 - 3:03PM #5
BDboy
Posts: 5,163

Jan 3, 2011 -- 10:17PM, Pam34 wrote:


It may also be worth pointing out that, while the concept of 'the messiah' and the 'end of days' or 'the messianic age' are very important in Christianity, they are of much lesser importance to Judaism and the Jews.


 


Invariably, when I speak to Christian groups, I am asked 'but what do you have to believe to be saved?' and just as invariably, I have to stop and give them a basic lesson in Judaism before I can even BEGIN to answer that question - because it is not very important to Judaism at all, and rarely even thought about in any meaningful way - neither the messiah, nor the salvation concept, nor even the notion of required 'belief'.


 




>>>>>>> If none of it is important to Judaism, why so many Jewish people are "Very" religious and take so much trouble to follow the faith?


Second question, how do you know that another faith ( Bahaism, Christianity etc) are not true faiths? What makes you so sure that, you are following a "Complete" faith not a part of faith [ Since Christianity and Islam have claims over Moses as well]?


Thank you.

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 05, 2011 - 9:27PM #6
Pam34
Posts: 2,649

Why do (so many) Jews follow Torah? Because it is OURS. Judaism is the faith-way of the Jewish people and we are the Jewish people, and the Jewish people (speaking 'religiously') have been and are commanded by God to obey the commandments of God as a condition of our covenant with God at Sinai.


 


As for the truth (or lack thereof) of other religious traditions, that doesn't matter to us. They can be true ways to God too. Our is a true way to God and it is OUR particular Way. There is no reason (in our point of view) for any other people to follow our Way. In our opinion, all peoples of the earth have an appointed Way to God of their own.


 


To put it very simply, we as Jews are commanded by God to follow the covenant of Sinai. We aren't commanded to attract other people to that covenant (although we welcome individuals who come to us and wish to join) nor are we commanded to turn to new paths that may (or may not) ALSO lead to God. Those other ways aren't ours, and we have been commanded to stick to our own path and not to stray to others.

Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 05, 2011 - 9:43PM #7
LeahOne
Posts: 16,128

BDBoy, I'm not sure I even understand your questions : ((


Judaism isn't about 'getting to Heaven':  it's about living a life of righteousness here on Earth.


Judaism is a 'complete' religion, a complete way of life - as Islam is.  (I'm not so sure about Christianity because I don't know enough)


Judaism isn't concerned about being 'the One True TRUTH':  our religion is the proper religion for us.  UNlike either Islam or Christianity, Judaism does not claim to be 'the' religion for anyone else but Jews.


Our Sages have declared that 'The righteous of all nations shall have a share in the World to Come'.  So obviously we do not believe that one must be a Jew to live a life pleasing to GOD and be given a place in the World to Come ('Heaven', so to speak).  Of course, we aren't invested in avoiding 'Hell' since we don't have a concept of a place of eternal torment....we beleive all souls will have to undergo a period of 'refining' to remove the vestiges of sin before being 'presentable' for a place in the World to Come.  well, more or less:  Judaism has very little 'required beliefs'.  You can check out the 'Thirteen Points of Maimonides for a reference - but be aware that he was roundly criticized for presuming to codify such, as 'codification' can become 'fossilization'.


If you have any other questions, BDBoy, I invite you to ask them, or repeat your question in other terms so that maybe I can understand what you're trying to ask.  This isn't a 'slam' at you:  we are used to two different 'vocabularies' to discuss our faiths, and some concepts just don't translate well at all.


What my coreligionist was trying to explain to you is that 'Messiah' is not  teh central concept of Judaism. 


There are any number of sites online which will explain in detail exactly what the Jewish requirements for MbD (Davidic Messiah) are - and how Jesus did not fulfil those Jewish requirements. 


'Prophesy' in Judaism is not like 'prophesy' in Christianity:  it's not 'telling the future', but 'telling forth' the Will of GOD, speaking Truth to Power.  So the many 'prophesies' which Christians find in the Torah which they see as pointing to Jesus, are generally *not* considered 'prophesies' to begin with.  Daniel, for example, is not in the Book of Prophets, but of Writings:  he is not considered a prophet.  The Psalms are poetry, not prophesy......

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 05, 2011 - 9:45PM #8
LeahOne
Posts: 16,128

: ((   I think I'll go off and sulk now....Pam has answered better and more concisely than I ever could. 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 05, 2011 - 10:05PM #9
LeahOne
Posts: 16,128

Jan 2, 2011 -- 2:19AM, dlj22414 wrote:


  I am a devoted protestant ive grown up with the only knowledge about jews having generally the same beliefs as myself except that Jews do not believe that Jesus wasn't the messiah. Correct me if im wrong but i was taught the reason was because Jesus was not of a High status... not a "true" king... what man's king is supposed so be.


  If this is true doesn't He (God) say a mans thoughts are foolish but a mans thought of God are wise? Im sorry if i have insulted anyone I'm just very currious. But what im saying is haven't people of the Jewish faith though about that? 


  Please respond. I want to clear this up.





Hi,  DLJ : ))   I guess it depends on how you look at it.  I was raised as a Jew, and Christianity seems very very different to me.  We can start with Genesis, the 'A&E' story:


Jews do NOT!!!!! have a concept of 'the Devil':  ha-satan is an angel of GOD, not 'in rebellion' but doing the job assigned to him by the LORD.  (and the serpent is just a serpent to us)


We do not have a concept of 'original sin'. 


We do not believe blood is necessary for remission of our sins.  (It's the *repentance* which does that:  right IN Leviticus it gives substitutes for the blood sacrifices for sins.  Obviously if there are substitutes listed, the 'ingredient' is NOT essential!)


And - always and forever! - we do NOT!!! believe a man can be GOD.  NO WAY.  That is AGAINST the most basic core belief of Judaism, it would be idolatry (as Judaism defines such)


If you have the time, there's a couple of threads over on 'Discuss Christianity' which you might read for some detailed info.  One is titled something about 'Jews must be wrong':  the poster you want to read is 'theprinterlady'. 


Please keep asking us questions : )) 

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2011 - 12:04AM #10
Pam34
Posts: 2,649

Leah said:


BDBoy, I'm not sure I even understand your questions : ((


Judaism isn't about 'getting to Heaven':  it's about living a life of righteousness here on Earth.


There you have it - a perfect example of what I meant when I said that answering a SEEMINGLY simple question from a Christian often requires a lengthy (and probably confusing) answer from a Jew.


Judaism is not 'Christianity without Jesus' just as Christianity isn't Judaism plus. Although Christianity developed FROM late Second Temple Judaism, it's similarity to MODERN Judaism (which also developed FROM late Second Temple Judaism) is no more than moderate.


 


Yes, the faiths share a great deal - but they are far from identical, and in certain areas of theological or doctrinal importance, they are almost opposites.


 


 

Blessed are You, HaShem, Who blesses the years.
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