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Switch to Forum Live View A friendly question from a Christian.
6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 3:45AM #21
ItsAllALie
Posts: 4,421

Shlomo613 wrote:



Don't know if I posted this here or elsewhere, but only Jews are specifically commanded to not worship any other gods other than HaShem. Non-Jews have less stringent requirement and are allowed to have intermediaries and personal gods just as long as HaShem is considered above and unchallenged by these intermediaries. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with Christianity as a trinity with an intermediary for gentiles.



So where does this leave Pagans? I've always been told that there's nothing wrong with being a Pagan,,,,,,,,if you're a Pagan,,,,there is only something wrong with Paganism for a Jew,,,

Also, I HAVE seen Rabbi's say that ONLY the creator may be worshipped,,NO intermediaries,,,,in fact there appears to be a bit of disagreement on this part of the laws,,,,,

[QUOTE]If the worship of entities other than the Creator had not been forbidden by His express command, then people would be free to choose what to worship, just as they choose their own personal friends. However the whole area of relations between humanity and its Creator has been placed under specific requirements, namely that only His truth and unity should be the subject of belief, worship and philosophy. His revelation has two levels, the one in nature for ordinary reckoning, and the other through prophecy on Mount Sinai for the moral law. All non-Jews derive their true religious fulfillment from this latter source, and any reference to an intermediary causes error and loss of morality.
[/QUOTE]

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ … f-noah.htm

I've also heard Rabbi's say that since Christians believe that Jesus IS God, they BELIEVE him to be the creator, and therefore ARE only worshiping the creator, and therefore, they are fine,,,,,,

CONFUSING, I tell you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holly

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 9:32AM #22
ffb
Posts: 2,113
"I've also heard Rabbi's say that since Christians believe that Jesus IS God, they BELIEVE him to be the creator, and therefore ARE only worshiping the creator, and therefore, they are fine,,,,,,"

that broaches the question of shituf, partnership -- are there other manifestations of god with whom god shares his job. whether or not shituf is a problem is a whole other can of worms.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 11:54AM #23
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
[QUOTE=Shlomo613;955433]There is such a thing as idolatry for gentiles, if there isn't then why is it part of the Nochaide law? Some things are allowed for genties that Jews would not  be allowed, but it's not carte blanc.



And the use -- not the worship but the use -- of images is part of that allowed to gentile.

It's impossible to prove existance of any G-d, what does that have to do with anything?



Because if you cannot prove that God exists and if you cannot prove that God issued any specific commandments, then you have no right telling someone else that his religious beliefs and practice are wrong and inferior.

We Jews have a standard of what idolatry is, and if some practice qualifies as idolatry, it's not arrogant to state the fact, no more than it would be arrogant to call shoplifting theft. I really don't care if the shoplifter thinks it's not theft because it's justified because of some social inequality. It's theft and I will declare it such.



Sorry, that doesn't hold water. Shoplifting is theft as determined by the civil law of the municipality you both live in. There is an objective and demonstrable source that says that shoplifting is theft, a source that you both can verify and that you are both subject to. You have nothing but your religious faith to tell you that praying with statues and icons is idolatry and forbidden to gentiles. You can't back up that claim with anything objective or verifiable, so you have no right to condemn some one's religious practice.

I do not fault all Hindus or all Catholics as idolaters, but there are some practices in those faiths which some follow which are.



Yet they are not necessarily idolatry for them, nor do you have any right to condemn them for it.

If I see someone offer a spoon of milk to an idol, I will say that's idolatry (what other possible reason could it be?), and I don't care really what religion that person claims to follow.[/QUOTE]

You will inject yourself into someone else's religious practice to tell someone their practice is idolatrous, and you don't think that's being arrogant? Now, if the person does not believe their statues is an idol, then their action is not idolatry. Hindus do not believe their god statues are idols, they do not believe their statues are gods, so they are not idolaters.

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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 11:55AM #24
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
[QUOTE=ffb;1028591]"I've also heard Rabbi's say that since Christians believe that Jesus IS God, they BELIEVE him to be the creator, and therefore ARE only worshiping the creator, and therefore, they are fine,,,,,,"

that broaches the question of shituf, partnership -- are there other manifestations of god with whom god shares his job. whether or not shituf is a problem is a whole other can of worms.[/QUOTE]

And one that Jews really have no right to open in regard to other people's religions. We've been persecuted and murdered for centuries because people disapprove of our beliefs and practices, so we have absolutely zero moral right or authority to condemn anyone else.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 1:54PM #25
ffb
Posts: 2,113
shituf is not so much an issue as it relates to other people's religions but as it relates to the status of a jew who accepted it either in "conjunction" with his judaism or instead of it, espcially if that person wants to claim a place in the jewish community again. the standing of shituf as idolatry or not would affect that individual's standing as a member of the community.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 7:14PM #26
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
[QUOTE=ffb;1029085]shituf is not so much an issue as it relates to other people's religions but as it relates to the status of a jew who accepted it either in "conjunction" with his judaism or instead of it, espcially if that person wants to claim a place in the jewish community again. the standing of shituf as idolatry or not would affect that individual's standing as a member of the community.[/QUOTE]

OK, but whereas I don't think Jews have any right to police the beliefs of non-Jews, I think we are responsible to each other about our own beliefs.

It was my understanding that shittuf is categorically forbidden to Jews, and so it ought not make a difference whether or not it is idolatry. If a Jew is meshattef anyone or anything it's not good.
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 10:14PM #27
ffb
Posts: 2,113
well, I'm certainly not one to tell another jew what is good or not...
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 19, 2009 - 10:56PM #28
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617
[QUOTE=ffb;1030465]well, I'm certainly not one to tell another jew what is good or not...[/QUOTE]

Does not compute... ????
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2009 - 6:25AM #29
Bob Wells
Posts: 112

nieciedo wrote:

Sorry, that doesn't hold water. Shoplifting is theft as determined by the civil law of the municipality you both live in. There is an objective and demonstrable source that says that shoplifting is theft, a source that you both can verify and that you are both subject to. You have nothing but your religious faith to tell you that praying with statues and icons is idolatry and forbidden to gentiles. You can't back up that claim with anything objective or verifiable, so you have no right to condemn some one's religious practice.


Shoplifting may be defined by local laws but theft is defined by God's law. There are many cases where someone takes something from another in a legal way. Would not the correct thing to do in such a case be to take up the cause of the victim? Shouldn't someone explain to the offender that what they are doing is improper?

You will inject yourself into someone else's religious practice to tell someone their practice is idolatrous, and you don't think that's being arrogant? Now, if the person does not believe their statues is an idol, then their action is not idolatry. Hindus do not believe their god statues are idols, they do not believe their statues are gods, so they are not idolaters.


It is a curiosity that people typically will not call their own faith system a religion. Religion is defined as what the other people do. A person will normally judge another by what that person can be seen as doing. But a person judges one's self by looking into the heart.

If a little old lady thinks the road is safe to cross and does not see the truck coming, she is making a mistake.The person who uses the law to take something from another is making a mistake. The person who bows down to worship an idol but in the heart is trying to worship God, is also making a mistake.

It is proper to help someone from making a mistake.

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 02, 2009 - 12:15PM #30
nieciedo
Posts: 5,617

Bob Wells wrote:

Shoplifting may be defined by local laws but theft is defined by God's law.


The problem with God's law, however, is that it is pretty much subjective. Human laws are, as I said above, demonstrable. You can look them up. You can see how they are made. You can see for yourself the authority who makes them. Plus there are very real consequences if you break them. You could fined, arrested, go to jail. God's law, unfortunately, has none of those concrete expressions. God's law appears to vary depending on the believer.

There are many cases where someone takes something from another in a legal way. Would not the correct thing to do in such a case be to take up the cause of the victim? Shouldn't someone explain to the offender that what they are doing is improper?


I don't think I understand. :(

It is a curiosity that people typically will not call their own faith system a religion. Religion is defined as what the other people do. A person will normally judge another by what that person can be seen as doing. But a person judges one's self by looking into the heart.


I call my "faith system" a "religion," because that's what it is: a system of symbols and rituals that serve to facilitate communion with the Sacred as perceived by me and my community. Faith doesn't really enter into it. I also do not judge other people's religious practice so long as it does not demonstrably harm others.


If a little old lady thinks the road is safe to cross and does not see the truck coming, she is making a mistake.The person who uses the law to take something from another is making a mistake. The person who bows down to worship an idol but in the heart is trying to worship God, is also making a mistake.

It is proper to help someone from making a mistake.


But first you have to prove that there is a mistake being made. There has to actually be a truck there that poses a threat, or else you're interfering in her life without any valid reason. You'd have to first prove that God exists to warn others from worshiping idols.

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