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Switch to Forum Live View A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism
8 years ago  ::  Oct 02, 2008 - 7:05PM #21
Miguel_de_servet
Posts: 17,177

Erasmus wrote:

Firstly, the statement in no way shows that there is "scientific dissent from Darwinism".  [a.] Scientists treat all theories with skepticism.  That's the whole point of doing science. [b.]  Nowhere in the statement does it state that RM + NS can not produce complex structures, [c.]  nor does it state that we should abandon the theory of evolution.


[a.] So, I guess you decry all "scientists" who uncritically tear their clothes, unless ToE is recognized as "not just theory, but fact", do you? ;)

[b.] True, in their words, they are just healthily "skeptical of claims for the ability of RM and NS to account for the complexity of life". :rolleyes:

[c.]  Simply to affirm that ToE (exclusively RM + NS) is "unable" to "account for the complexity of life" is quite a change from the present "(neo)-Darwinian dogma", wouldn't you agree? :)

Erasmus wrote:

Secondly, how many on the list are biologists named Steve (or derivations thereof)?  I bet I have more Steve's on my side than you do.  I have over 900 biologists named Steve who agree with this statement.

Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, [hear hear ...] there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools. [Statement of NCSE "Project Steve" - underlining and [note] MdS]


Perhaps it has escaped you that, between "legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution" and "natural selection is a major mechanism" the total absence of Random Mutation sticks out like a ... ...

Mario

Revelation is above, not against Reason

“The everlasting God is a refuge, and underneath you are his eternal arms ...” (Deut 33:27)
“Do you have an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?” (Job 40:9)
“By the Lord’s word [dabar] the heavens were made; and by the breath [ruwach] of his mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)
“Forever, O LORD, Your word [dabar] stands in heaven.” (Psalm 119:89)
“Who would have believed what we just heard? When was the arm of the Lord revealed through him?” (Isaiah 53:1)
“Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38)
“For not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:13)

“Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.”(Romans 13:8)
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8 years ago  ::  Oct 02, 2008 - 7:30PM #22
Oncomintrain
Posts: 3,516
[QUOTE=Miguel_de_Servet;800025][a.] So, I guess you decry all "scientists" who uncritically tear their clothes, unless ToE is recognized as "not just theory, but fact", do you? ;)[/QUOTE]

Before any of us should be expected to affirm that notion, I think you need to provide us with a list (even if a partial one) of scientists who "uncritically tear their clothes" unless the ToE is recognized as "not just theory but fact."  I have yet to read a single report of ToE-related clothing-tearing.

[QUOTE[[b.] True, in their words, they are just healthily "skeptical of claims for the ability of RM and NS to account for the complexity of life". :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Yes, as we all should be. You're reading pessimism into skepticism.

[QUOTE][c.]  Simply to affirm that ToE (exclusively RM + NS) is "unable" to "account for the complexity of life" is quite a change from the present "(neo)-Darwinian dogma", wouldn't you agree? :)[/QUOTE]

That was not the claim made by any of the "circa" 1000. They didn't claim that it was UNable. They expressed that they were SKEPTICAL regarding its ability.

[QUOTE]Perhaps it has escaped you that, between "legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution" and "natural selection is a major mechanism" the total absence of Random Mutation sticks out like a[/QUOTE] ... RANDOM AND DISTRACTING GRAPHIC...

I'm sorry, but do you seriously question the existence of random mutations, Mario? And by "random", I mean mathematically, not metaphysicially.

Mario[/QUOTE]
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8 years ago  ::  Oct 02, 2008 - 8:37PM #23
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029
[QUOTE=Miguel_de_Servet;800025][a.] So, I guess you decry all "scientists" who uncritically tear their clothes, unless ToE is recognized as "not just theory, but fact", do you?


It seems you have difficulty in separating theory from fact and are unfamiliar with the scientific use of the term "theory." Learning about those things might help you to understand the topic better.

[b.] True, in their words, they are just healthily "skeptical of claims for the ability of RM and NS to account for the complexity of life".


They can say what they want. There are no "experts" in science, only facts. So far, the facts do not support your creationism.

[c.]  Simply to affirm that ToE (exclusively RM + NS) is "unable" to "account for the complexity of life" is quite a change from the present "(neo)-Darwinian dogma", wouldn't you agree?


No. "Complexity" with regards to evolution, or life, is a creationists strawman argument.

You really should study up on the topic before you try to debate on it.;)

Theatrics snipped.:rolleyes:

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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8 years ago  ::  Oct 02, 2008 - 8:45PM #24
amcolph
Posts: 20,246
Mario is just anxious to put "God" in evolution somehow, and can't think of any way to do it but ID.
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8 years ago  ::  Oct 02, 2008 - 8:59PM #25
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029
[QUOTE=amcolph;800233]Mario is just anxious to put "God" in evolution somehow, and can't think of any way to do it but ID.[/QUOTE]
And everyone knows that ID is just creationism in a pretty dress.
Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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8 years ago  ::  Oct 02, 2008 - 9:07PM #26
amcolph
Posts: 20,246
[QUOTE=mountain_man;800280]And everyone knows that ID is just creationism in a pretty dress.[/QUOTE]


I would have said, that ID is just creationism with inflatable shoes.
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8 years ago  ::  Oct 02, 2008 - 9:26PM #27
DGMelby
Posts: 970
[QUOTE=mountain_man;800280]And everyone knows that ID is just creationism in a pretty dress.[/QUOTE]ID just thinks it's wearing a pretty dress.  Unfortunately, it doesn't have any clothes... and provides ample evidence why 95% of people look better with clothes, than without.
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8 years ago  ::  Oct 02, 2008 - 10:07PM #28
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029
[QUOTE=amcolph;800301]I would have said, that ID is just creationism with inflatable shoes.[/QUOTE]
Would they be full of hot air?
Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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8 years ago  ::  Oct 02, 2008 - 10:53PM #29
Skeptic889
Posts: 1,842
[QUOTE=mountain_man;800388]Would they be full of hot air?[/QUOTE]

But of course. :D
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8 years ago  ::  Oct 02, 2008 - 11:33PM #30
Ridcully
Posts: 3,747
Just for fun, I picked a single person from the "dissent" list linked by Mario. I decided to pick someone listed as being a biologist. I have no idea how representative this info is of the other signers, but it's a bit interesting.

The person picked: Luman R. Wing
Position noted: Associated Prof. of Biology
University: Azusa Pacific

First, I tried to find a vita for Prof. Lu...couldn't find one on the Net.

Next, I did a general search on the name and found that Prof. Lu is on the staff at Calvary Chapel Bible College. On that site he is referred to as Pastor and teaches "Numbers, Leviticus, Science and the Bible and also the gospel of Luke." The site also notes that he "has a Bachelor’s Degree as well as a Ph.D. He is a microbiologist and he also teaches at Azusa Pacific University."

Given that info, I then looked up Azusa Pacific University. They refer to themselves as an "evangelical Christian university." Pastor Lu seems not to be on the faculty at this time. They do have a dept. of biology and chemistry, at least.

So it goes...
"Things just happen, what the hell."  Didactylos
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