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5 years ago  ::  May 06, 2008 - 2:57PM #11
gizmolove
gizmolove
Posts: 398
[QUOTE=sincerly;479227]Giz, on that first Forum, you referred to your belief as "Christian" and "Jew". Therefore, I'm puzzled by your-----"I see"(in regards to your verses).
It seems to me that you are being overpowered by the same Jewish beliefs at the time of Christ's crucifixion-------Christ is not the Messiah nor the son of God----Therefore, "crucify him".

That would negate the need for Christ's blood and validate the "blood of bulls and goats" as the means for Atonement------A FALSE CONCLUSION BECAUSE  HEBREWS CHAP.9+10 SAYS IT WAS "IMPOSSIBLE" FOR THOSE ANIMAL BLOOD TO ACCOMPLISH.

... But HIS "people" are the one's who are obedient in "ALL

God looks for Believers with Faith/genuine conviction----not an "ethnic group"/race,/denomination/etc. Possibly, I'm just echoing your expressions/conclusions.??[/QUOTE]

I am sorry to not be able to answer your whole post now. And, I am sorry for the confusion that I know that I have caused you (it's very understandable). I must make this post brief because I'm preparing for a vacation with my family. I am interested in your response, so much so that I plan to print out these posts to me and study them on the plane with my Bible. Thank You.

I just want to say here, that when I get back, I will be better prepared to respond, and maybe my next post to you will be clearer (even if just in my own mind). I hope that you will bear with me a little while until I return.

Thank you so much for your answers to my question. I have very much appriciated your posts to me.

I hope to talk to you later. (When I get back)

Blessings and Peace,
Giz
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5 years ago  ::  May 18, 2008 - 9:15PM #12
gizmolove
gizmolove
Posts: 398
Sincerly,

Below is my first post:
[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by gizmolove 
I would like any one that is knowledgable as to the doctrines of the SDA Chruch, to give me an honest scriptual opinion, for the following statement:

********************************************************************************************

Jesus himself said to the Jewish religious leaders of his day:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (Matthew 23:15, KJV)

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matt.23:33)


He also said: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT! BEHOLD, YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT UNTO YOU DESOLATE." (Matt.23:37)

It looks to me like the nation of Israel had some serious accounting to do to their God. And they haven't gotten any better in these present days. That is why "their house" is "desolate", and why their God has abandoned them. Because they killed their Massiah.

I would hope that the Jews would turn to Christ before the end of the system of things. That would be wonderful! But I wouldn't hold my breath. Just like I wouldn't hold my breath for ANY particular people to convert. It seems like folks are content in their ruts and don't really care about spiritual things. But I hope I'm wrong!

************************************************************************************************

I do not want to give any opinion about this statement, myself. I am open to only how a 7th Day Adventist would feel about this and if there are any Biblical or Adventist doctrine, to either agree or dissagree with what is said, above.

Thank You,
Giz
[/QUOTE]

Thank you for waiting for my reply, I've been out of town. I have weighed all posts and comments to me about the above statement. I am sorry if I have decieved you, it has not been on purpose. These things above are not my thoughts. They are thoughts that I disagree with. This is what I ment when I said on the first forum that the SDA Church had gotten "too Christian" for me. I realise now (although I did not know at that time) what I ment by that statement.

What you have above is basically what I believe to be "Replacement Theology". I am heartly against that theology. I state again, that I do not see Christianity as a "New" religion, but simply an addition/extention to the ONE TRUE religion, The True Religion of God. (The one God, the God of Creation).

At the risk of being removed again, I'd like to take the above statement and debate it one phrase at a time:

The first three statements by Jesus is a lamentation to the Jews for their behavior. A lamintation I might add that is relavent to many Christians of today. God always has a way of chastising those He loves and tried to make them turn from their ways of selfishness to His perfect way of peace and love. The last statement in Matt: 23: 37, as to their house being left desolate, did come true in 70 AD when the temple was distroyed and has not been built up unto this very day. As to the Jew's themselves being left "desolate", that is a misunderstanding of scripture. G-d will never forsake His people. Not the Jew, nor the wayward Christian. "....for that ALL should be saved and come unto the Glory of the Lord". The thread of not any being "lost" runs throughout the Holy Bible. God would have all come to Him, and that none should be "lost".

Christianity however, believes that the only way to "God" is through Jesus. However, Jesus never refered to Himself as "G-d". He gave all credit, all glory, all praise to "Our Father, which art in Heaven"... Jesus prayed to God in the garden, not to Himself. I guess it all goes to your concept of the Holy Trinity. But, whatever your concept of the Trinity is, it's only correct if it does not war against itself. I do not believe in one plan of "salvation" for the Jew, then a new and different plan of salvation for the Christian. God is the same, yesterday, today, tomorrow and forever! It is said that "we are saved by faith"......faith in who? In God? In G-d? In Jesus? In Christ? What is the difference when they are all one and the same in one Holy Trinity? Would we second guess God and say who is worthy of salvation, and who is not? I pray not!

However, my point in Matt. is Jesus said that their "house" would be desolate, not them. That was a prophesy, and it came true. Just as we Christians face desolation, without faith, belief, understanding, following the narrow way, and being submissive to the will of God. All, have a right to come to God according to their own understanding, in their own way, according to the will of God.

[QUOTE]
God has abandoned them. Because they killed their Massiah.[/QUOTE]

GOD WILL NEVER ABANDON HIS PEOPLE. BE THEY JEW OR CHRISTIAN OR WHATEVER! Who are we to know what is "good"? Even Jesus said, "Why callest me "good"? Do ye not know that there is none GOOD, but thy Father which is in Heaven"! God has the only yardstick. And, I am content therein.

[QUOTE]
Because they killed their Massiah [/QUOTE]

That's the most offensive, blasphmous statement I've ever heard. Absolutely false!

First off, the "Jew's" had no authority to "kill" anyone. Only the "State" of Rome had that authority. Secondly, it was Pilot that washed his hands of the deal, not the Jews. The final decission was by Roman authority. Third, I was asked how I felt that "the Jew's killed Jesus"? My answer:

Well, if that is true, (which it isn't) then I guess that next Sabbath I ought to go to Synagogue and kiss every Jew there. Because without the Blood of Christ, there would be no payment for sin. I think if that's the case, we owe the Jews a big round of applause.

Finally, the act of the Cross was foretold by Christ. He knew what was in store. He prayed to the Father to releave Him of that burdon, and His prayer was perfect. "Oh Father, would that this cup would be taken from me; but, never-the-less, thy will and not mine be done"! The act of the cross was founded from the foundations of the world. It was God's plan. Jesus was the perfect Passover Lamb. The perfected Lamb of God. And Christ went to the Cross willingly, as was the will of the Father.

To turn God's love, God's perfect plan of salvation, God's perfect plan of love and redemption  over to a plan of hate, based upon hate and emnity towards another people, is Satan's doctrine, not mine.

And Jesus said,
"And, there shall come those saying that "I AM" the Christ, and shall decieve many, even unto the very elect"!
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5 years ago  ::  May 20, 2008 - 1:26AM #13
sincerly
sincerly
Posts: 4,049

gizmolove wrote:

Sincerly,  Below is my first post:

Thank you for waiting for my reply, I've been out of town. I have weighed all posts and comments to me about the above statement. I am sorry if I have decieved you, it has not been on purpose. These things above are not my thoughts. They are thoughts that I disagree with. This is what I ment when I said on the first forum that the SDA Church had gotten "too Christian" for me. I realise now (although I did not know at that time) what I ment by that statement.

What you have above is basically what I believe to be "Replacement Theology". I am heartly against that theology. I state again, that I do not see Christianity as a "New" religion, but simply an addition/extention to the ONE TRUE religion, The True Religion of God. (The one God, the God of Creation).

At the risk of being removed again, I'd like to take the above statement and debate it one phrase at a time:

   

Giz, I admit that I was somewhat puzzled by the way you phrased that first and then the subsequent posts. But I appreciate your clarifying with this one.
I trust you had an enjoyable vacation.

As I stated in my last post,""""God looks for Believers with Faith/genuine conviction----not an "ethnic group"/race,/denomination/etc. Possibly, I'm just echoing your expressions/conclusions.??""""

From the impression I get from this post of yours, we are acknowledging basically the same understanding with some minor?? differences-----which I''ll address as we look at  your comments to those verses you initially questioned/wanted opinions concerning.

Let's look:

Giz] The first three statements by Jesus is a lamentation to the Jews for their behavior. A lamintation I might add that is relavent to many Christians of today. God always has a way of chastising those He loves and tried to make them turn from their ways of selfishness to His perfect way of peace and love. The last statement in Matt: 23: 37, as to their house being left desolate, did come true in 70 AD when the temple was distroyed and has not been built up unto this very day. As to the Jew's themselves being left "desolate", that is a misunderstanding of scripture. G-d will never forsake His people. Not the Jew, nor the wayward Christian. "....for that ALL should be saved and come unto the Glory of the Lord". The thread of not any being "lost" runs throughout the Holy Bible. God would have all come to Him, and that none should be "lost".

Yes,  wrote:

The first three statements by Jesus is a lamentation to the Jews for their behavior. A lamintation I might add that is relavent to many Christians of today. God always has a way of chastising those He loves and tried to make them turn from their ways of selfishness to His perfect way of peace and love. The last statement in Matt: 23: 37, as to their house being left desolate, did come true in 70 AD when the temple was distroyed and has not been built up unto this very day. As to the Jew's themselves being left "desolate", that is a misunderstanding of scripture. G-d will never forsake His people. Not the Jew, nor the wayward Christian. "....for that ALL should be saved and come unto the Glory of the Lord". The thread of not any being "lost" runs throughout the Holy Bible. God would have all come to Him, and that none should be "lost".

Yes,  The key word is "ALL" peoples of the world are the progeny of Adam and Eve. God is not the respecter of persons------that includes races, ethnic groups, gender, or social status.(etc.)
God made that clear  when HE brought the descendants of Abraham and the "mixed multitude" to Himself at Sinai. Lev.19:34; 24:22;  Deut.31:12;

Giz, What's in a name?? Why was Jacob's name which meant "usurper"/"supplanter" changed by God to "Israel" meaning "prince of God"/"Prevailer"/"overcomer".??
Salvation is open to ALL as we both agree.
Therefore, when Paul(A Jew, strict in the knowledge of the law and things pertaining to the history and understandings of the JEWS) asked the question----"Who are the Israelites?"--in Rom.9:4-8  What was the answer??? vs.6, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" and
vs.8, "They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the Children of GOD: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

It was ALL those who acknowledged that the Creator God was GOD and chose to have HIM AS THEIR GOD----as did the moabite--Ruth. And Rahab. and as Paul was declaring in Rom.11 "ALL" were capable of being grafted into the "tree" by "Believing".
That same "Tree"/"CHURCH" hasn't changed---It is the same "Believers"/"Assembly of believers"/"Called out ones" to HIS TRUTHS"  which  was at Sinai.(Acts 7:38) and is seen in Acts2:47

Who are they which are Redeemed??  "ALL" who choose to "ABIDE IN GOD"-----""OVER COME THE "WILES/TEMPTATIONS OF SATAN" AND "SELFISH DESIRES"----"ACCEPT THE 'PRINCELY" " ROBE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"----"PREVAIL" IN OBEDIENCE TO THE WILL OF GOD TO THE END." THESE ARE THE "ISRAEL"  WHICH PAUL IS WRITING ABOUT in those verses and Gal.3:26-29 and Eph.2:19-22.

1Pet.2:5-10, indicates that God's Chosen people are no longer a "nation of believers"; But, "Believers in ALL Nations".
ALL Jews who "Believe in Jesus---and HIS Redemptive, Atoning sacrifice"  WILL BE restored to the "Tree". Or as 2Pet.3:9 states---God is long suffering---not willing that any should perish, but that "ALL' should come to repentance.

Giz] Christianity however, believes that the only way to "God" is through Jesus. However, Jesus never refered to Himself as "G-d". He gave all credit, all glory, all praise to "Our Father, which art in Heaven"... Jesus prayed to God in the garden, not to Himself. I guess it all goes to your concept of the Holy Trinity. But, whatever your concept of the Trinity is, it's only correct if it does not war against itself. I do not believe in one plan of "salvation" for the Jew, then a new and different plan of salvation for the Christian. God is the same, yesterday, today, tomorrow and forever! It is said that "we are saved by faith"......faith in who? In God? In G-d? In Jesus? In Christ? What is the difference when they are all one and the same in one Holy Trinity? Would we second guess God and say who is worthy of salvation, and who is not? I pray not!



When you phrase it-----""your concept of the Trinity""", I am at a loss to know where you stand??

"Refer"??---The angel to Mary---"called the son of the Highest".  wrote:

Christianity however, believes that the only way to "God" is through Jesus. However, Jesus never refered to Himself as "G-d". He gave all credit, all glory, all praise to "Our Father, which art in Heaven"... Jesus prayed to God in the garden, not to Himself. I guess it all goes to your concept of the Holy Trinity. But, whatever your concept of the Trinity is, it's only correct if it does not war against itself. I do not believe in one plan of "salvation" for the Jew, then a new and different plan of salvation for the Christian. God is the same, yesterday, today, tomorrow and forever! It is said that "we are saved by faith"......faith in who? In God? In G-d? In Jesus? In Christ? What is the difference when they are all one and the same in one Holy Trinity? Would we second guess God and say who is worthy of salvation, and who is not? I pray not![/quote]

When you phrase it-----""your concept of the Trinity""", I am at a loss to know where you stand??

"Refer"??---The angel to Mary---"called the son of the Highest".  The Father at the "Baptism and transfiguration"---"This is my Son".     Jesus to the pharisees-----"I AM".   Thomas after the resurrection----""My Lord and my God".  Jesus giving the commission-----"Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost". PLUS others.

However, I agree that there is NO PLAN OF SALVATION, BUT ONE-- FOR ALL[/u}

gIz] However, my point in Matt. is Jesus said that their "house" would be desolate, not them. That was a prophesy, and it came true. Just as we Christians face desolation, without faith, belief, understanding, following the narrow way, and being submissive to the will of God. All, have a right to come to God according to their own understanding, in their own way, according to the will of God.



Giz, Didn't God say that HE would reside in the place where HE chose to place HIS Name?? And that was Jerusalem??
True, GOD will strive with man as long as man lives to repent and turn to a right relationship to HIM. And as you indicate, Man's coming to GOD is """"according to the WILL of GOD".""" NOT IN ONE'S OWN BELIEFS AND UNDERSTANDING.

But back to where HIS NAME IS FOUND/PLACED NOW.
With the destruction of the "Temple" in A.D.70, (and previous), Paul had written,
1Cor.3:16-17 "Know ye not that [u]ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy wrote:

However, my point in Matt. is Jesus said that their "house" would be desolate, not them. That was a prophesy, and it came true. Just as we Christians face desolation, without faith, belief, understanding, following the narrow way, and being submissive to the will of God. All, have a right to come to God according to their own understanding, in their own way, according to the will of God.[/quote]

Giz, Didn't God say that HE would reside in the place where HE chose to place HIS Name?? And that was Jerusalem??
True, GOD will strive with man as long as man lives to repent and turn to a right relationship to HIM. And as you indicate, Man's coming to GOD is """"according to the WILL of GOD".""" NOT IN ONE'S OWN BELIEFS AND UNDERSTANDING.

But back to where HIS NAME IS FOUND/PLACED NOW.
With the destruction of the "Temple" in A.D.70, (and previous), Paul had written,
1Cor.3:16-17 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are."
And
1Cor.6:19-20, "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.."
This also  is in agreement with Peter's assessment above.AND Jesus's "your house is left desolate." And Isa.65:1-3,12;

Giz] GOD WILL NEVER ABANDON HIS PEOPLE. BE THEY JEW OR CHRISTIAN OR WHATEVER! Who are we to know what is "good"? Even Jesus said, "Why callest me "good"? Do ye not know that there is none GOOD, but thy Father which is in Heaven"! God has the only yardstick. And, I am content therein.



As you posted, HIS PEOPLE are the ones who have submitted to HIS WILL and are obediently serving HIM.


wrote:

GOD WILL NEVER ABANDON HIS PEOPLE. BE THEY JEW OR CHRISTIAN OR WHATEVER! Who are we to know what is "good"? Even Jesus said, "Why callest me "good"? Do ye not know that there is none GOOD, but thy Father which is in Heaven"! God has the only yardstick. And, I am content therein.[/quote]

As you posted, HIS PEOPLE are the ones who have submitted to HIS WILL and are obediently serving HIM.



Giz] That's the most offensive, blasphmous statement I've ever heard. Absolutely false!

First off, the "Jew's" had no authority to "kill" anyone. Only the "State" of Rome had that authority. Secondly, it was Pilot that washed his hands of the deal, not the Jews. The final decission was by Roman authority. Third, I was asked how I felt that "the Jew's killed Jesus"? My answer:

Well, if that is true, (which it isn't) then I guess that next Sabbath I ought to go to Synagogue and kiss every Jew there. Because without the Blood of Christ, there would be no payment for sin. I think if that's the case, we owe the Jews a big round of applause.

Finally, the act of the Cross was foretold by Christ. He knew what was in store. He prayed to the Father to releave Him of that burdon, and His prayer was perfect. "Oh Father, would that this cup would be taken from me wrote:

That's the most offensive, blasphmous statement I've ever heard. Absolutely false!

First off, the "Jew's" had no authority to "kill" anyone. Only the "State" of Rome had that authority. Secondly, it was Pilot that washed his hands of the deal, not the Jews. The final decission was by Roman authority. Third, I was asked how I felt that "the Jew's killed Jesus"? My answer:

Well, if that is true, (which it isn't) then I guess that next Sabbath I ought to go to Synagogue and kiss every Jew there. Because without the Blood of Christ, there would be no payment for sin. I think if that's the case, we owe the Jews a big round of applause.

Finally, the act of the Cross was foretold by Christ. He knew what was in store. He prayed to the Father to releave Him of that burdon, and His prayer was perfect. "Oh Father, would that this cup would be taken from me; but, never-the-less, thy will and not mine be done"! The act of the cross was founded from the foundations of the world. It was God's plan. Jesus was the perfect Passover Lamb. The perfected Lamb of God. And Christ went to the Cross willingly, as was the will of the Father.

To turn God's love, God's perfect plan of salvation, God's perfect plan of love and redemption over to a plan of hate, based upon hate and emnity towards another people, is Satan's doctrine, not mine.

And Jesus said,
"And, there shall come those saying that "I AM" the Christ, and shall decieve many, even unto the very elect"!




GIZ, It was ME, YOU, AND EVERY SINNER(ALL) WHO KILLED JESUS.
HE WILLINGLY LAID DOWN HIS LIFE SO THAT WE CAN LIVE.----------Individually, applied.

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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