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Switch to Forum Live View I have a question about hell
6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 3:14AM #1
Zorgblar
Posts: 443
what does luke 12:4-5 say to you about hell?
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 7:04PM #2
DanielMT
Posts: 112
[QUOTE=Zorgblar;718154]what does luke 12:4-5 say to you about hell?[/QUOTE]

Let's see what this scripture says.

Luke 12:4-5 NW: "4 Moreover, I say to YOU, my friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more. 5 But I will indicate to YOU whom to fear: Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Gehenna. Yes, I tell YOU, fear this One."

Jehovah God has the authority to take away any life prospects a person may have after death. This is what Gehenna represents, the second death from which there is no resurrection.

The first one mentioned in the scripture says they are able to do no more. A person who has suffered this death may have the prospect of living again because Jehovah wills it.

Daniel
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 10:40PM #3
anotherpaul
Posts: 2,702
[QUOTE=Zorgblar;718154]what does luke 12:4-5 say to you about hell?[/QUOTE]

Nothing.

Gehenna used here, is not "hell". Hell is used to translate the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades. Gehenna is another word entirely.
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6 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2008 - 11:32PM #4
Nomi69
Posts: 6,731
[QUOTE=anotherpaul;720158]Nothing.

Gehenna used here, is not "hell". Hell is used to translate the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades. Gehenna is another word entirely.[/QUOTE]


There is no resurrection for those condemned to Gehenna. This means that not all will be resurrected just to die again. Jehovah and Jesus Christ know the heart. Tho many will be resurrected.....they are ones who are deemed likely to come under Jesus's ransom sacrifice. Some think that this sacrifice covers all sins...that is not necessarily true. There are "sins" that it does not cover...some are deemed unforgivable.  For some groups of people, they may fall into this class.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 11, 2008 - 3:55PM #5
Bimp5
Posts: 51
[QUOTE=Nomi69;774205]There is no resurrection for those condemned to Gehenna. This means that not all will be resurrected just to die again. Jehovah and Jesus Christ know the heart. Tho many will be resurrected.....they are ones who are deemed likely to come under Jesus's ransom sacrifice. Some think that this sacrifice covers all sins...that is not necessarily true. There are "sins" that it does not cover...some are deemed unforgivable.  For some groups of people, they may fall into this class.[/QUOTE]

May I ask what sins are those that are unforgiveable? I know sinning against the Holy Spirit is one, what are some others?
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6 years ago  ::  Nov 16, 2008 - 10:16AM #6
Newtonian
Posts: 12,072
[QUOTE=Bimp5;888210]May I ask what sins are those that are unforgiveable? I know sinning against the Holy Spirit is one, what are some others?[/QUOTE]

Hi Bimp!  Good question!

Here is some help mostly from this and next week's Bible reading:

It is not an actual specific sin - three people could become apostate - one would have gone beyond repentance to being unforgiveable, another would be able to repent and hence be forgiveable but would simply fail to repent, still another could repent and return and be totally forgiven.

This is, of course, a Bible question - here are a few verses that apply (there are others, btw):

(Hebrews 10:26-31) . . .For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.

[that is in our next week's Bible reading, btw.]

Notice that for a person's sin to not be covered by Jesus' ransom sacrifice it would have to be:
1.  Practicing the sin, not merely committing the sin.

2.  It would have to be willful.  Only Jehovah and Jesus can judge the heart to determine how willful the sin was - and whether the person's heart was therefore totally corrupted such that he (or she) could never be able to repent.  We might think our sin is unforgiveable - but the very fact that we want to repent and be forgiven means that our heart is not totally corrupted and our sin is indeed forgiveable.

An example was the repeated practice of Judas of stealing from the money box for the poor and his hypocritical complaint about the woman who spent her money caring for Jesus before his death instead of putting the money into the money box (so he could steal it) - he likely had already gone beyond repentance before he betrayed Jesus.

3.  After receiving an accurate knowledge of the truth.  Normally one who is baptized as one of Jehovah's Witneses has a basic accurate knowledge - but not necessarily - something may have been missed.   It is not likely anyone who is not one of Jehovah's Witnesses has an accurate knowledge of the truth - except perhaps some ex-Jehovah's Witnesses who are apostates - again, though, this may not be known by us - it certainly is known by Jehovah and Jesus.

How would you know what crucial portion of accurate knowledge you may have missed out on if, in fact, you do not know it yet?   Again, this is for Jehovah and Jesus Christ to judge.

(Hebrews 6:4-12) . . .For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame. 7 For example, the ground that drinks in the rain which often comes upon it, and that then brings forth vegetation suitable to those for whom it is also cultivated, receives in return a blessing from God. 8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is rejected and is near to being cursed; and it ends up with being burned. 9 However, in YOUR case, beloved ones, we are convinced of better things and things accompanied with salvation, although we are speaking in this way. 10 For God is not unrighteous so as to forget YOUR work and the love YOU showed for his name, in that YOU have ministered to the holy ones and continue ministering. 11 But we desire each one of YOU to show the same industriousness so as to have the full assurance of the hope down to the end, 12 in order that YOU may not become sluggish, but be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
[That is in this week’s Bible reading, btw.]

Those for whom it is impossible to be revived again to repentance (Hebrews 6:4-6) are those who have committed the unforgivable sin.  Notice how opposite this account is to the false doctrine in some religion’s of Christendom: once saved, always saved.

In fact, it is only those who were saved who can commit the unforgivable sin (see above) since only they have an accurate knowledge of the truth  (Hebrews 10:26).  Notice, in fact, that this account is directly talking about those who were already anointed with holy spirit and therefore born again in that sense - and in fact had ‘powers’ [gifts of the holy spirit] to be used in the coming system - e.g. the 1,000 year reign.

In principle it applies to all who are true believers but who fall away to the extent the account is talking about.   To what extent so that they cannot repent?

Again, this is an attitude of heart which only Jehovah and Jesus can judge.  Notice how corrupt their heart has become (like Judas when he hypocritically complained about the gift to Jesus by a faithful woman instead of putting the money in the money box so he could steal it - compare Annanias and Sapphira - they apparently played false to the holy spirit which, again, we as humans could not know without miraculous gift of the holy spirit.

Notice how corrupt such a one’s heart is:

(Hebrews 6:6) . . .because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.

Have you noticed how some posters will expose us to public shame - those that realize we are Jehovah’s Witnesses (in actuality, not just in name) and that we truly are blessed as followers of Jesus - are in danger of being judged by Jesus this way

This is not referring to merely questioning or have doubts - it is referring to unforgiveable attack on those they know full well are followers of Jesus and loyal worshippers of Jehovah. 

Depending on their hearts, which only Jehovah and Jesus can judge, they risk being counted as goats and even worse: the evil slave:

(Matthew 25:31-33) 31 “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
(Matthew 25:41-46) 41 “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but YOU gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but YOU gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but YOU did not receive me hospitably; naked, but YOU did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but YOU did not look after me.’ 44 Then they also will answer with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them with the words, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

Indeed, those who fail to love us, who are truly Jehovah’s Witnesses both in name and in practice and in our hearts, are so judged as goats by Jesus at (or  near) Armageddon - note they are judged by Jesus, not us, as our literature has shown.

Most potential goats are also potential sheep - except for those who have committed the unforgivable:

Even worse are those who ‘beat’ us, or ‘attack’ us - again especially those who knew the truth but have turned against it:

(Matthew 24:48-51) . . .“But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.

Notice the evil slave says these things in his heart - it is not just the sin - it is the heart attitude that determines whether a sin is unforgivable - I.e. whether that person can repent.
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