| 5 years ago :: Nov 25, 2007 - 7:52PM #1 | |
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Hi everyone, I was wondering what the position is in the Bahai Faith towards theodicy? ( Theodicy is the problem of suffering and evil in a world governed by a just and loving God). How do Bahais explain the inexplicable suffering of innocent people and children in God's world? If He is just and all-powerful and loving He should somehow, some way stop or at least help those who go through agony all the time all around the world. This world is filled with pain. Does the Bahai Faith allow us humans to question and even protest to God why we have to suffer so much?? I once read a book that said that one can be a man (or a woman, for that matter of course) with God or even against God, but never without God. Is it possible to have doubt within faith or faith within doubt ? And if not, why? I think the Bahai Faith is a beautiful religion but I would have a problem joining it (or thinking about joining it) if I was not allowed my questions and doubts. I consider myself a religious person and seeker who has belief in One God, and yet, I still do not want to banish my reason and conscience because I feel those are qualities given to us by the very God who allows us to question Him. I'm not qute sure of the Baha'i position on all this because I'm relatively new to it. I do know that some religions tend to discourage these kind of questions ( ie, fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam).
Thank you to all who reply and I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving :) - Joshua Shalom, Salaam. |
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| 5 years ago :: Nov 27, 2007 - 6:41PM #2 | |
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[QUOTE=NedFlanders;93749]Hi everyone, I was wondering what the position is in the Bahai Faith towards theodicy? ( Theodicy is the problem of suffering and evil in a world governed by a just and loving God). How do Bahais explain the inexplicable suffering of innocent people and children in God's world? If He is just and all-powerful and loving He should somehow, some way stop or at least help those who go through agony all the time all around the world. This world is filled with pain. Does the Bahai Faith allow us humans to question and even protest to God why we have to suffer so much?? I once read a book that said that one can be a man (or a woman, for that matter of course) with God or even against God, but never without God. Is it possible to have doubt within faith or faith within doubt ? And if not, why? I think the Bahai Faith is a beautiful religion but I would have a problem joining it (or thinking about joining it) if I was not allowed my questions and doubts. I consider myself a religious person and seeker who has belief in One God, and yet, I still do not want to banish my reason and conscience because I feel those are qualities given to us by the very God who allows us to question Him. I'm not qute sure of the Baha'i position on all this because I'm relatively new to it. I do know that some religions tend to discourage these kind of questions ( ie, fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam).
Thank you to all who reply and I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving :) - Joshua Shalom, Salaam.[/QUOTE] Joshua: I am a Baha'i. One of themain principles of the Baha'i Faith is independant investigation of the truth. Questioning aloing the spiritual path IS a fundemental and uniquely human process of development. having opinions is also uniquely human. As far as I am concern, the Faith has satisfied this in me. We ARE to ask questions within the Faith. We ARE to agree and at times disagree, (We call it consultation), on issues. There is no clergy and many facets of humanity within this Faith; hence many many many different opinions. One of the most beautiful aspects of this Faith for me is the way Spirit comes in and buffers each individual in love and harmony, resulting in progress of souls and communities. Sounds too good to be true, right. Well, I have seen it in action, many times. Any more questions? I'll be happy to assist. |
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| 5 years ago :: Dec 13, 2007 - 2:04PM #3 | |
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Greetings,
To address the cruxt of the question, I found the following quote from Abdul Baha, a leader of the faith following the death of our prophet Bahaullah: "All these examples are to show you that the trials which beset our every step, all our sorrow, pain, shame and grief, are born in the world of matter; whereas the spiritual Kingdom never causes sadness. A man living with his thoughts in this Kingdom knows perpetual joy. The ills all flesh is heir to do not pass him by, but they only touch the surface of his life, the depths are calm and serene." (Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 109) In addition, Bahaullah states: "Say: Nature in its essence is the embodiment of My Name, the Maker, the Creator. Its manifestations are diversified by varying causes, and in this diversity there are signs for men of discernment. Nature is God's Will and is its expression in and through the contingent world. It is a dispensation of Providence ordained by the Ordainer, the All-Wise. Were anyone to affirm that it is the Will of God as manifested in the world of being, no one should question this assertion. It is endowed with a power whose reality men of learning fail to grasp. Indeed a man of insight can perceive naught therein save the effulgent splendour of Our Name, the Creator. Say: This is an existence which knoweth no decay, and Nature itself is lost in bewilderment before its revelations, its compelling evidences and its effulgent glory which have encompassed the universe." (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 141) Hence, in my individual pursuit of truth, I have concluded that pain, evil, suffering are indeed products of the material world (quote 1). However, the material world is a product of God (quote 2). In this sense, all I can understand is that there are reasons beyond my understanding as a finite being. In other words, as a human being, I am NOT infinite. I do not and will not know everything while in this form. Suffering is one of those mysteries. Yes, God contributes the material means for it to happen. But it is our perception of it that matters. Do we blame God? Or our own lack of understanding of why the suffering is happening (our own finiteness, smallness relative to God). I use the following analogy to explain the occurance of that which is beyond my ken (ie suffering etc). Picture yourself next to a tall watch tower. You are on the ground, the Creator is at the top of the tower. You are awaiting an important message who is far distant. Who will see the message and its messenger first? You or God? In other words, God has an infinitely broader, more far reaching view and understanding of the wisdom and purpose behind all things. We will never come close to what It comprehends. In this sense, even suffering falls within the realm of all encompassing love. WE just don't understand its purpose (and perhaps never will). Seek God for comfort in pain. Don't recoil from It. Peace. P.S. - The opposite of love is the perception of fear (hate, pain, anger, etc). However Love is infinite. Hence it cannot have a true opposite. The only reason we experience the delusion of the opposite of Love is because we are beings who are finite yet bestowed with keen perception of the physical world. In that world, we see the finite. And the finite can appear painful, and beyond our comprehension. |
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| 5 years ago :: Dec 13, 2007 - 2:14PM #4 | |
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As I see it, the Bahai principle of the independant pursuit of truth REQUIRES that we continually question. You might not encounter this stance among all Bahais all the time given that, to a certain extent, if one questions everything, one would be paralyzed to do anything. It all has to be a balance. Bahais try to accomplish the building of the foundations of the sustainable peace that has been promised to this era. Hence we listen to the dictates of the Universal House of Justice and other elected administrative bodies, weigh the wisdom in their recommendations, and try to obey them as much as possible. That is all that we are asked to do. It's really all that we CAN do.
Peace. |
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| 5 years ago :: Dec 20, 2007 - 11:04AM #5 | |
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[QUOTE=NedFlanders;93749]Hi everyone, I was wondering what the position is in the Bahai Faith towards theodicy? ( Theodicy is the problem of suffering and evil in a world governed by a just and loving God). How do Bahais explain the inexplicable suffering of innocent people and children in God's world? If He is just and all-powerful and loving He should somehow, some way stop or at least help those who go through agony all the time all around the world. This world is filled with pain. Does the Bahai Faith allow us humans to question and even protest to God why we have to suffer so much?? ...
- Joshua Shalom, Salaam.[/QUOTE] Excerpts from an October 14, 1985 letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to a friend in response to a question regarding the suffering of exploited children is contained below. I cherish the hope that it will assist you in finding an answer to your question. … On this plane of existence, there are many injustices that the human mind cannot fathom. Among these are the heart-rending trials of the innocent. Indeed, even the Prophets of God Themselves have borne their share of grievous afflictions in every age. Yet in spite of the evidence of all this suffering, God's Manifestations, Whose lives and wisdom show Them to have been far above human beings in understanding, unitedly bear testimony to the justice, love and mercy of God. With regard to the spiritual significance of the suffering of children "who are afflicted by the hands of oppressors", 'Abdu'l-Bahá not only states that for those souls "suffering is the greatest mercy of God", He also explains that to be a recipient of God's mercy is "far better and preferable to all the comfort of this world", and He promises that "for those souls there is a recompense in another world". Thus: "As to the subject of babes and infants and weak ones who are afflicted by the hands of oppressors: This contains great wisdom and this subject is of paramount importance. In brief, for those souls there is a recompense in another world and many details are connected with this matter. For those souls that suffering is the greatest mercy of God. Verily that mercy of the Lord is far better and Preferable to all the comfort of this world and the growth and development of this place of mortality." You enquire why some souls, notably those born to loving parents, are seemingly favoured by God, while those born to abusing and rejecting parents are destined to endure a lifetime of suffering, since children, growing up in such a destructive atmosphere are more likely as adults, to perpetrate abuse on their own children, thus repeating the cycle of violence and thereby further placing in jeopardy their relationship to God. Clearly, only God is able to know the true state of any soul. It is therefore important to appreciate that God in His bounty has endowed every created thing, however humble, "with the capacity to exercise a particular influence, and been made to possess a distinct virtue". And, reminiscent of the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30), Bahá'u'lláh, in the "Gleanings", (p. 149) draws attention to the need to make efforts to develop and demonstrate in action out God-given potential: "...All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth." Is it not an evidence of the justice of God that each of us, irrespective of family background, is assessed in terms of the efforts we have made to seize whatever opportunities existed in our lives, to develop and use our allotted talent, be it large or small? "Each shall receive his share from the Lord", is Baha'ullah's assurance. Sufferings and trials, sent by God to test and perfect His creatures, are an integral part of life. They contain the potential for man's progress or retrogression, depending on the individual's response. As 'Abdu'l-Bahá explains: "...The souls who bear the tests of God become the manifestations of great bounties: for the divine trials cause some souls to become entirely lifeless, while they cause the holy souls to ascent to the highest degree of love and solidity. In addition, we know from the Bahá'í Writings that man's soul "is independent of all infirmities of body or mind," and not only continues to exist "after departing from this mortal world", but progresses "through the bounty and grace of the Lord". Therefore, an evaluation of man's material existence and achievements cannot ignore the potential spiritual development stimulated by the individual's desire to manifest the attributes of God and his response to the exigencies of his life, nor can it exclude the possibility of the operation of God's mercy in terms of compensation for earthy suffering, in the next life." As to your own torment and suffering arising from your perception of the fate of children and their oppressors, the way to peace and security for you and for humanity as a whole, is through service to the Cause [The Baha’i Faith], to which you have so earnestly committed yourself. We are instructed to assure you that the Universal House of Justice with offer prayers at the Holy Shrines that your faith may be deepened and your perplexities resolved, and we share with you these solacing word of Bahá'u'lláh: "My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in heir joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain." |
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| 5 years ago :: Dec 20, 2007 - 11:04AM #6 | |
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[QUOTE=NedFlanders;93749]Hi everyone, I was wondering what the position is in the Bahai Faith towards theodicy? ( Theodicy is the problem of suffering and evil in a world governed by a just and loving God). How do Bahais explain the inexplicable suffering of innocent people and children in God's world? If He is just and all-powerful and loving He should somehow, some way stop or at least help those who go through agony all the time all around the world. This world is filled with pain. Does the Bahai Faith allow us humans to question and even protest to God why we have to suffer so much?? ...
- Joshua Shalom, Salaam.[/QUOTE] Excerpts from an October 14, 1985 letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to a friend in response to a question regarding the suffering of exploited children is contained below. I cherish the hope that it will assist you in finding an answer to your question. … On this plane of existence, there are many injustices that the human mind cannot fathom. Among these are the heart-rending trials of the innocent. Indeed, even the Prophets of God Themselves have borne their share of grievous afflictions in every age. Yet in spite of the evidence of all this suffering, God's Manifestations, Whose lives and wisdom show Them to have been far above human beings in understanding, unitedly bear testimony to the justice, love and mercy of God. With regard to the spiritual significance of the suffering of children "who are afflicted by the hands of oppressors", 'Abdu'l-Bahá not only states that for those souls "suffering is the greatest mercy of God", He also explains that to be a recipient of God's mercy is "far better and preferable to all the comfort of this world", and He promises that "for those souls there is a recompense in another world". Thus: "As to the subject of babes and infants and weak ones who are afflicted by the hands of oppressors: This contains great wisdom and this subject is of paramount importance. In brief, for those souls there is a recompense in another world and many details are connected with this matter. For those souls that suffering is the greatest mercy of God. Verily that mercy of the Lord is far better and Preferable to all the comfort of this world and the growth and development of this place of mortality." You enquire why some souls, notably those born to loving parents, are seemingly favoured by God, while those born to abusing and rejecting parents are destined to endure a lifetime of suffering, since children, growing up in such a destructive atmosphere are more likely as adults, to perpetrate abuse on their own children, thus repeating the cycle of violence and thereby further placing in jeopardy their relationship to God. Clearly, only God is able to know the true state of any soul. It is therefore important to appreciate that God in His bounty has endowed every created thing, however humble, "with the capacity to exercise a particular influence, and been made to possess a distinct virtue". And, reminiscent of the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30), Bahá'u'lláh, in the "Gleanings", (p. 149) draws attention to the need to make efforts to develop and demonstrate in action out God-given potential: "...All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth." Is it not an evidence of the justice of God that each of us, irrespective of family background, is assessed in terms of the efforts we have made to seize whatever opportunities existed in our lives, to develop and use our allotted talent, be it large or small? "Each shall receive his share from the Lord", is Baha'ullah's assurance. Sufferings and trials, sent by God to test and perfect His creatures, are an integral part of life. They contain the potential for man's progress or retrogression, depending on the individual's response. As 'Abdu'l-Bahá explains: "...The souls who bear the tests of God become the manifestations of great bounties: for the divine trials cause some souls to become entirely lifeless, while they cause the holy souls to ascent to the highest degree of love and solidity. In addition, we know from the Bahá'í Writings that man's soul "is independent of all infirmities of body or mind," and not only continues to exist "after departing from this mortal world", but progresses "through the bounty and grace of the Lord". Therefore, an evaluation of man's material existence and achievements cannot ignore the potential spiritual development stimulated by the individual's desire to manifest the attributes of God and his response to the exigencies of his life, nor can it exclude the possibility of the operation of God's mercy in terms of compensation for earthy suffering, in the next life." As to your own torment and suffering arising from your perception of the fate of children and their oppressors, the way to peace and security for you and for humanity as a whole, is through service to the Cause [The Baha’i Faith], to which you have so earnestly committed yourself. We are instructed to assure you that the Universal House of Justice with offer prayers at the Holy Shrines that your faith may be deepened and your perplexities resolved, and we share with you these solacing word of Bahá'u'lláh: "My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in heir joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain." |
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