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7 years ago  ::  Nov 23, 2007 - 1:56PM #21
Feinics
Posts: 2,539
oh I understand things written can be percieved in  different ways.  You seem to be picking up on what I said wrong.
Thats why I said I can deal with the words Im given.

What meaning do you think I got from which particular words creaky?:)

I merely wanted to clear up an issue I had about the law of return but it seems to have gone off topic. I can only phrase a question in the best way I can.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 24, 2007 - 9:49AM #22
CreakyHedgewitch
Posts: 1,244
[QUOTE=Feinics;89421]What meaning do you think I got from which particular words creaky?:).[/QUOTE]

A review of recent posts would answer that, I believe and not derail the topic any longer.

What was the issue you wanted to clear up about the law of return?

C.H.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 24, 2007 - 11:43AM #23
Feinics
Posts: 2,539
Well some of it has been cleared up but I guess im still unclear about a few things.
Such as the importance of the law of return to wiccans , I see it included in statement of beliefs but if its an explanation of cause and effect  and not a core belief then that makes me confused.
And im still unclear exactly why is karma and the law of return so often mentioned together?
Am I lost cause?:)  I understand the basic sentiments of the law of return but I guess Im still unclear to  whether or not its a moral/magical guideline for wiccans. 

If the way I am phrasing it makes it hard for it to be explained it to me Im sorry though it could just be that im just thick :)
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 25, 2007 - 1:46PM #24
CreakyHedgewitch
Posts: 1,244
While you sometimes ask extremely broad questions for which there are no simple answers, your phrasing is just fine.

All Wiccans practices must include something that addresses the law of return and if they don’t, then it remains questionable if the practice can be recognised as being part of the Religion of Wicca. However, ‘something that addresses’ the concept of ‘you get what you send out’ also enables a diversity of how that is being conceptualised. Which will determine whether an individual Wiccan or group or Tradition considers ‘their’ take on this core belief to be a magical guideline, a moral guideline or both. So no simple answer here for all Wiccans.

Also the Law of Return isn’t just Wiccan. The earlier sources of this Law obviously couldn’t be and the Law like so much else in published Wicca is found in many forms throughout modern Paganism and the various religions that evolved under this umbrella. As a Dianic Witch for instance (and not being Wiccan), the Law of Return is a magical guideline as well as moral. I interpret it as, 1) the effort for me to send something out, 2) the effort for me to deal with the immediate consequences and 3) the effort for me to deal with the long-term consequences.

As a past life healer, I have often seen karma and the law of return intertwined by many authors, notably Pagan. Many interpretations are very much in keeping with the Neo-Wicca, trendy Paganism that is so lucrative today. Keeping in mind here that the karma most often being referred to is the sanitised Western version and not applicable to the Eastern concept with its context of nirvana, negation of human existence, caste system and punishment/debt. The Western version has echoes of these but no consistent cultural or mythological or religious foundation. Basically Western karma becomes whatever the individual or group or marketing needs it to be and as such is easily appended to the various interpretations of the Law of Return. The more unfortunate Western versions of karma, I have dealt with in my healing work include everything from:  ‘you are one of the chosen’ ego-trap to the self-inflicted martyrdom of ‘karmic’ debt and curses that encourage not taking self-responsibility for changing ones life to the seductive ‘soul-mate’ concept that inflicts an impossible standard that a prospective relationship has to attain.

C.H.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 25, 2007 - 5:50PM #25
Feinics
Posts: 2,539
thank you. So would i be right in thinking its not that karma is bound into wiccan belief in general but that it is used to relate the idea of return to people unfamilar with it?
maybe when Iv time to digest the information I could come back with some more specific questions if that is more productive?
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 25, 2007 - 10:51PM #26
Gwyddion9
Posts: 320
thanks KeaErisdottir, your post, # 18, was well thought out. i really appreciated it. as usual, i have trouble with putting thoughts into words and even then, communicating them to others.
i agree with your thoughts on the matter. at one point, you mentioned ethics when doing magick.
in my studies, my teacher drummed ethics, to check our ethics before perfoming ANY kind of magick.
... will hurt or harm, physically, mentally, spiritually, or emotionally. if there was a yes to any or a doubt, than i had to go over the list again to honestly make sure and if it did, not to perform the magick. anyway, i just wanted to say thanks for post 18. it put into words many of the thoughts i've had pertaining to this.
Anyway, blessings to all!
Hi SG, hope your well.
Gwyddion9 (Ron)
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. Dr. Seuss


Let My Worship be within the heart that rejoiceth, for behold: all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals. And therefore let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you. Charge of the Goddess
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 28, 2007 - 9:55AM #27
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496
Ron!  We miss you when you are not here!  Post more!  :D
Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 17, 2007 - 8:21PM #28
DAH54
Posts: 3,318

sacrificialgoddess wrote:

A link to a favorite website


I believe this maybe the page SG was thinking of, The Threefold Law, but then you know what they say about a fundie telling a Goddess what she is thinking...  Also another page is here. Most likely more than you ever want to know can be found on these 10 pages 

For Technical support visit


> Dah's User to User Self Support <

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7 years ago  ::  Nov 18, 2007 - 11:46AM #29
DAH54
Posts: 3,318

TheWhiteHart wrote:

They are all good, Dah.

I would expound a bit on the Three Fold Law. It is not necessarily that you get thrice the good or bad... but that it returns to you on three levels. Mental, Physical and Spiritual.

Some people get overly tied up in the eastern Karmic beliefs that Karma and reincarnation are connected. They may be. But different religions will teach it differently, and hold the various parts of it in varying degrees of importance.


Yes I would agree that it's not necessarily that you get back thrice, depends on just what one is doing, there are also seven, nine, and hundred fold laws. Numbers and symbolism abound from "Nine woods in the cauldron go..." to nine pointed stars. There are many hints for one willing to search. Nine representing mind, body, spirit, past, present, future, birth, life, death.

Sadly many modern practitioners don't truly understand and get tied to a Karma concept of good and bad, right and wrong. Much of the old ways is lost.

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7 years ago  ::  Nov 18, 2007 - 3:56PM #30
DAH54
Posts: 3,318
There are certainly those who profess to believe the Threefold Law was created in the 1960s to give Wicca an illusion of respectable, as part of cleaning up the Craft and making it appear to be more acceptable to Christians who had the power then. That it and the other expressions of ethics where simply tools of the reclaiming. That the Ethics of Wicca are part of the Grand Illusion.   :) A lot depends on if you accept that Wicca was a religion created in the 40 ~ 50 ~ 60 or if you believe it is/was a older religion. Much of the written history of what is known now as Wicca is from the sixties and seventies.

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