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3 years ago  ::  Dec 16, 2014 - 3:03PM #1
Aka_me
Posts: 14,464

every so often I search looking for logically valid issues against the Baha'i Faith, anything other than:


1. my scriptures say [pick one or more: galloping white pegasus in low earth orbit hasn't happened yet, the great flyin stars haven't crash landed turning earth into a black hole, anti-Christ hasn't brought world peace yet, there can never ever never be any more prophets, can't have a second coming without a first coming].


2. there can be no God when the universe automagically sprang into existence.


and got a kick out of this.

I dream in my lifetime uhmericans will come to realize hezbollah, hamas, and isis gain followers by helping society AND the only way to defeat them is to perform greater good.

the average person is 8 times more likely to be murdered by a cop than a radical terrorist
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2014 - 9:48AM #2
world citizen
Posts: 6,480

"... got a kick out of this"


What possessed you to introduce this Covenant breaker filth to a broader audience here at Beliefnet?  Imho, there is nothing to find amusing about any of its content.

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love.  ~Baha'u'llah
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2014 - 3:52PM #3
Aka_me
Posts: 14,464

how do I determine an author of a site like that is a covenant breaker?



as I said, an interest in finding something more logically sound than Christian's many will come in my name, Muslims seal of the prophets, or atheist's God can't exist arguments.

I dream in my lifetime uhmericans will come to realize hezbollah, hamas, and isis gain followers by helping society AND the only way to defeat them is to perform greater good.

the average person is 8 times more likely to be murdered by a cop than a radical terrorist
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 21, 2014 - 5:27PM #4
world citizen
Posts: 6,480

Dec 21, 2014 -- 3:52PM, Aka_me wrote:

how do I determine an author of a site like that is a covenant breaker?



as I said, an interest in finding something more logically sound than Christian's many will come in my name, Muslims seal of the prophets, or atheist's God can't exist arguments.


Not asking you to determine the author's status.  The content is right out of the CB's playbook, and their works are cited in the blog as to where the author's ideas came from.  I didn't suggest that the blog's author is one, but that the content is unquestionably from CB written publications.

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love.  ~Baha'u'llah
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 23, 2014 - 10:15PM #5
Aka_me
Posts: 14,464

Dec 21, 2014 -- 5:27PM, world citizen wrote:

Not asking you to determine the author's status.  The content is right out of the CB's playbook, and their works are cited in the blog as to where the author's ideas came from.  I didn't suggest that the blog's author is one, but that the content is unquestionably from CB written publications.



I believe it necessary to take a bloody good hard look at critics to see if their issues have so much as an ounce of merit...


lest I join the morally bankrupt who ride a high horse of righteousness without any clue which god they worship.


and in this search for critical issues there is no difference between CB and non-CB.


what's funny is that I hadn't scrolled down past that humorous certificate until you had commented.


that Baha'is don't get involved with politics, until Baha'i DO get involved in politics, while continuing to profess they DON'T get involved in politics...


is an issue worth discussing, regardless of whether the messenger is a CB or not.



as a side note... I do believe Baha'u'llah had a hand in things, knowing that I don't give a rats tail about CB status when He placed an officemate with me whose family DESERVED to be removed from the CB list.


I was working on a top secret project at Microsoft when a new employee was assigned to my office. we had plenty of unused offices so it was odd to double my office and leave ones on both sides empty. this person had absolutely zero computer experience and got hired on a team designing personal robots where 80% of the people had PhDs.


eventually I mentioned being a Baha'i, and he responded with "oh so you're going to mysteriously stop talking to me like all other Baha'i have done".


I said "no, why do they stop talking to you?". though I knew the answer I wanted to see if he knew.


he replied "I wish one of them would explain it to me".


so I wrote national, who had to write the UHJ because that's where the CB list is maintained.


national replied to me "he is a CB, do not associate with him".


and I responded "that wasn't my question, I already knew that and will continue associating with him until we determine what he did to get on the list".


so national had to ask the UHJ what he did, they didn't know until a couple weeks worth of digging deep into the archives to discover his father's grandfather was a scribe for Baha'u'llah and went with the wrong group after Baha'u'llah's passing.


his mothers side had a grandfather sent by (I forget Shoghi Effendi or Abdu'l-Baha, let's assume it was AB) to pioneer to Egypt. the Egyptian government threw all foreigners out during world war I (I think) so upon returning to Haifa AB was away in Europe and the person in charge of affairs labeled him a CB because he disobeyed AB. disheartened to be labeled a CB, the grandfather took his family to (Syria, Lebanon, Jordan) and never opened any letters from AB asking him to return and explain his situation.


having dug all this information up... the UHJ decided it's necessary to do an investation into each of the surviving relatives to ask their feelings toward the Faith today (YA THINK Innocent).


none of the family members harbored any ill will toward the Faith...


all were removed from the CB list. the grandmother (in poor health nearing the Abha kingdom), a sister, and that sister's daughter all signed declarations.


it felt to me as if someone in the abha kingdom praying fervently for this moment gave me a big thankyou that the family's name had been removed from the CB list.


none of which would have been possible if I was morally bankrupt enough to sit down and shut my mouth when told to.

I dream in my lifetime uhmericans will come to realize hezbollah, hamas, and isis gain followers by helping society AND the only way to defeat them is to perform greater good.

the average person is 8 times more likely to be murdered by a cop than a radical terrorist
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2014 - 12:51PM #6
world citizen
Posts: 6,480

Aka, I think what you did for your office mate was a great service and you are to be commended for your tenacity in pursuing that to its final outcome.  It isn't, however, the topic of this thread.  Nor, for that matter, is whether Baha'is involve themselves in politics.  Please begin a new thread if that's on your mind.


"... in this search for critical issues there is no difference between CB and non-CB."


Do you really think so, Aka?  I have a different understanding:


Indeed, some of the Bahá'ís have the unpleasant duty to read such literature as part of their responsibilities for protecting the Cause of Bahá'u'lláh. However, the friends are warned in the strongest terms against reading such literature because Covenant-breaking is a spiritual poison and the calumnies and distortions of the truth which the Covenant-breakers give out are such that they can undermine the faith of the believer and plant the seeds of doubt unless he is fore-armed with an unshakable belief in Bahá'u'lláh and His Covenant and a knowledge of the true facts.  (Compilation: Lights of Guidance, p. 186)

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love.  ~Baha'u'llah
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 24, 2014 - 1:39PM #7
Aka_me
Posts: 14,464

Dec 24, 2014 -- 12:51PM, world citizen wrote:

"... in this search for critical issues there is no difference between CB and non-CB."


Do you really think so, Aka?  I have a different understanding:


Indeed, some of the Bahá'ís have the unpleasant duty to read such literature as part of their responsibilities for protecting the Cause of Bahá'u'lláh. However, the friends are warned in the strongest terms against reading such literature because Covenant-breaking is a spiritual poison and the calumnies and distortions of the truth which the Covenant-breakers give out are such that they can undermine the faith of the believer and plant the seeds of doubt unless he is fore-armed with an unshakable belief in Bahá'u'lláh and His Covenant and a knowledge of the true facts.  (Compilation: Lights of Guidance, p. 186)



I'm familiar with the admonishment... and imo there is no difference.


please realize, I didn't say all Baha'i have to go reading CB material, only saying that I believe I can handle CB material (and not because my faith is unshakable) because I don't jump to conclusions and weigh information based on fact not emotion.


as an example, I struggled in clinical depression during an extremely deep dark night of the soul recently for 2 to 3 months time. discussion of the issue was forbidden on Bnet. I had no one willing to help me. rather than form any conclussions I simply waited for a logical answer, and was given just such an answer.


it was essentially starting back at the valley of search. Baha'is who can't handle going back to the valley of seach should practice self censorship to stay away from troubling topics.


in my case of going back to the beginning of the valley of search, I have discovered having made significant progress in the valley of love.


I'm hoping no other Baha'is will find themselves so abandoned by their own community.

I dream in my lifetime uhmericans will come to realize hezbollah, hamas, and isis gain followers by helping society AND the only way to defeat them is to perform greater good.

the average person is 8 times more likely to be murdered by a cop than a radical terrorist
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 27, 2014 - 12:33PM #8
Lilwabbit
Posts: 3,409

Dec 24, 2014 -- 1:39PM, Aka_me wrote:


Dec 24, 2014 -- 12:51PM, world citizen wrote:

"... in this search for critical issues there is no difference between CB and non-CB."


Do you really think so, Aka?  I have a different understanding:


Indeed, some of the Bahá'ís have the unpleasant duty to read such literature as part of their responsibilities for protecting the Cause of Bahá'u'lláh. However, the friends are warned in the strongest terms against reading such literature because Covenant-breaking is a spiritual poison and the calumnies and distortions of the truth which the Covenant-breakers give out are such that they can undermine the faith of the believer and plant the seeds of doubt unless he is fore-armed with an unshakable belief in Bahá'u'lláh and His Covenant and a knowledge of the true facts.  (Compilation: Lights of Guidance, p. 186)



I'm familiar with the admonishment... and imo there is no difference.


please realize, I didn't say all Baha'i have to go reading CB material, only saying that I believe I can handle CB material (and not because my faith is unshakable) because I don't jump to conclusions and weigh information based on fact not emotion.


as an example, I struggled in clinical depression during an extremely deep dark night of the soul recently for 2 to 3 months time. discussion of the issue was forbidden on Bnet. I had no one willing to help me. rather than form any conclussions I simply waited for a logical answer, and was given just such an answer.


it was essentially starting back at the valley of search. Baha'is who can't handle going back to the valley of seach should practice self censorship to stay away from troubling topics.


in my case of going back to the beginning of the valley of search, I have discovered having made significant progress in the valley of love.


I'm hoping no other Baha'is will find themselves so abandoned by their own community.




Howdy Aka my buddy,


I am very sorry to hear that you feel so abandoned by your community. Over here you are a well-loved fixture among our little cyber-community of Bahá'ís with your couragious, critical and searching spirit that never fails to defy convention - for good or for ill! :) Perhaps that's why you end up in trouble so often, whether with non-Bahá'ís or Bahá'ís. Not many understand your aggressively inquisitive personality, but neither are you all that aware as to how unwittingly defiant (to all manner of authority, secular or religious) you sometimes come across even when you're actually only putting across a well-founded question from a very unique angle. You love to be thought-provoking (a truly important quality!), but it may sometimes (maybe mistakenly) come across as rebelliousness to even well-founded authority and convention (obviously we should challenge false authority and convention).


When it comes to CBs, I do not feel anyone who can honestly consider their faith to be less than "unshakable" can truly "handle" them. I too feel I'm pretty alright with handling CB material that I have unintentionally stumbled upon, but I would still not purposely seek out for more out of curiosity to discover the best arguments and thereby further reinforce my own convictions. No matter how cool-headed and rational I may think myself to be.


Kind regards from your Finnish popsicle,


Wabbit


P.S. What you did with your officemate was truly noble and great. I agree with WC! I've always gotten a benevolent vibe from you even through this treacherous format.

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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3 years ago  ::  Dec 27, 2014 - 2:19PM #9
world citizen
Posts: 6,480

" I struggled in clinical depression during an extremely deep dark night of the soul recently for 2 to 3 months time. discussion of the issue was forbidden on Bnet. I had no one willing to help me."


Dear friend Aka,


Sorry, but Beliefnet members cannot become THE topic of discussion.  I wish you had reached out to one or more of us on a personal basis through the messaging system (Inbox).  I can't agree that you were deliberately "abandoned" by this Baha'i community, and I take umbrage to your statement that no one was willing to help you.  None of us, to my knowledge, are psychic, and a quick behind-the-scenes message might have helped you in some way.  I wish I had known....  wc

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love.  ~Baha'u'llah
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