Important Announcement

See here for an important message regarding the community which has become a read-only site as of October 31.

 
Post Reply
Page 3 of 3  •  Prev 1 2 3
3 years ago  ::  Oct 03, 2014 - 6:23PM #21
christine3
Posts: 9,274

Oct 3, 2014 -- 4:58PM, 2BReal wrote:

I didn't begin the thread Christine; I just contributed to it. It doesn't require a belief in a personal God to have respect for life. I wouldn't doubt Jesus taught the basic idea of Panentheism which is tht he is in the father and the father is within hi. St. Paul expressed it as: Acts 17:28New International Version (NIV) 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[a] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[b] We are within the Source. We live within NOW. Esoteric Christianity is little known in secular society since it doesn't recruit nor speak of Man's greatness on earth but rather is found by those who need it. www.hermes-press.com/esoteric_christiani...



I understand Thoth Hermes. He was the last of the great healers before the Greeks got his teachings and picked them apart. So small groups of people went underground and passed teachings secretly from mouth to mouth. These were the mystery schools. The teachings surfaced again 1st century and were destroyed about 2nd century, but were found again in 1945 in the Nag Hammadi. If you are in a group that is trying to put them back together, great. Just keep doing what you're doing. One of these days Humpty Dumpty will be put back together again.

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 10, 2014 - 2:45PM #22
Druac
Posts: 14,509

Someone needs to learn how to resize images in their posts.



I finally had time to get to it. 

Moderated by JCarlin on Oct 17, 2014 - 10:00PM
Jesus Is My Savior...He Saves Me From REALITY!
---------------------------------------------
We created god in our own image and likeness!
[George Carlin]
---------------------------------------------
"Reason & Logic" - A Damn Good Slogan!
---------------------------------------------
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg, an American physicist
Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2014 - 9:16PM #23
2BReal
Posts: 125

Panentheism asserts that the whole is more than the sum of its parts so obviously strict atheism, which prides itself in measuring parts, cannot be open to the source of parts. But I'd like to leave a link here for anyone serious about the potential relationship between God and creation to consider. I consider Panentheism to be the religion of the future since it provides a scale within which scinece and religion can find common ground. Only a relative few could be open to it because of the effects of blind belief and blind denial. But anyway, food for thought.


 


www.frimmin.com/faith/godinall.php


 


Panentheism offers the potential for greater dialogue and communication between Christians and those of other views. Other religions share with Christianity this apprehension of the simultaneous beyondness and hereness of the Ultimate as well, even though they use different terms. Buddhism, for instance, speaks of "the Unmade," "the Unconditioned", "the Void"-that which is beyond all concepts on the one hand, but of "Buddha-nature" the divine potential immanent within all "sentient beings," on the other.


Furthermore, many people who call themselves atheists or agnostics actually are not; many have a strong sense of a spiritual dimension, but simply find the images of a "personal God" an intellectual hurdle. Often this is because of misunderstandings brought about by poorly communicated concepts of a very man-like God (though with extraordinary powers) somewhere "up above," reacting with wild emotions to events in the world. These simplistic images have offended countless people from believing in God, and countless more from being able to trust him deeply. So millions of Christians find themselves adults with dissonant, childish (and often threatening) images of God, and millions of non-religious people have only seen such images and rightly reject them.


The panentheism of the Bible is quite different: it certainly presents God as relating to persons and thus "personal," but also as infinitely beyond personality. To communicate God's infinity, the Bible describes God in many non-personal images as well. Consider a few: Spirit,(Jn 4.24)  Sun, (Mal 3:20)  Word, (Jn 1:1) Rock, (1Cor 10:4) Fire, (Heb 12:29) Light, (1 Jn 1:5) Waters of Life, (Rev 21.1) Wisdom, (Pr 1.20) and Love. (1 Jn 4:8) Perhaps we should keep in mind that God's "person"-ality is also a metaphor, for (he? she? it? all pronouns fail when contemplating this magnificence!) is as infinitely beyond being a "person" in the traditional sense as the One who created light is beyond being light.


No view of God is larger than the panentheistic view. All other theisms (deism, theism, polytheism, animism, pantheism, atheism) are fragmented theologies compared to panentheism. This is the ground for an inexhaustible faith-that God is present right now, in every cell of our bodies, in every beat of our hearts, in every person, in every star, in every loving thought, birthing every particle of every atom of the entire Creation into a constant stream of existence, the invisible Nothing and Nowhere that brings forth Everything and Everywhere. God in all things and all things in God invites wonder, and wonder invites all to touch God.


 


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 16, 2014 - 10:32PM #24
christine3
Posts: 9,274

Panentheism or pantheism may or may not be the religion of the future. Anything with the word theism in it, I balk at.


About 4,000 years ago many gods were worshipped across many cultures.  Christianity has been conquering the world's religions and saying their god is the only god. He is known only as God.


In a way that satisfies other people whose religions are being taken over because they can think their god is still The God, while Christianity stealthily takes over their religion. Very clever.


That's why Christianity is so deplorable to me. It is the worst most dishonest religion there ever was. It conquers by dishonesty. It destroys indigenous understanding of nature and that is the worst crime I can think of.


This present Christianity isn't what it's founder taught. That's why I say, true Christians will have to take back their true religion some day.


So I can see how easily understanding of nature, energy, the ancients' local universe, morphed to the many gods belief and did so probably at about the same time money was invented. Trinkets, statues of wood and gold, materialized gods, were sold. After that, a conquering religion said their god was the greatest god and called him God.


So now we have a problem. Religion says it is God. Atheism says it is the universe sans God(s).

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 17, 2014 - 7:18PM #25
2BReal
Posts: 125

Oct 16, 2014 -- 10:32PM, christine3 wrote:


Panentheism or pantheism may or may not be the religion of the future. Anything with the word theism in it, I balk at.


About 4,000 years ago many gods were worshipped across many cultures.  Christianity has been conquering the world's religions and saying their god is the only god. He is known only as God.


In a way that satisfies other people whose religions are being taken over because they can think their god is still The God, while Christianity stealthily takes over their religion. Very clever.


That's why Christianity is so deplorable to me. It is the worst most dishonest religion there ever was. It conquers by dishonesty. It destroys indigenous understanding of nature and that is the worst crime I can think of.


This present Christianity isn't what it's founder taught. That's why I say, true Christians will have to take back their true religion some day.


So I can see how easily understanding of nature, energy, the ancients' local universe, morphed to the many gods belief and did so probably at about the same time money was invented. Trinkets, statues of wood and gold, materialized gods, were sold. After that, a conquering religion said their god was the greatest god and called him God.


So now we have a problem. Religion says it is God. Atheism says it is the universe sans God(s).




 


 I agree that a great deal of secularized expressions of Christianity, as a whole called, Christendom, has lost the original intent of its founder. So what is Christianity? What is its aim? Secularists will tell that its aim is to impose morality on the general public of a given society. In contrast, Jesus spoke of "rebirth." But who knows what that means?


 John 12:


 24 Verily, verily I say unto you, unless a grain of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


25 He that loveth his life shall lose it, and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


 If this is the goal of Christianity, then there is no reason for persecution.


 If I were to say "That's why women are so deplorable to me. They are the worst most dishonest humans there ever were. They conquer by dishonesty. They destroy indigenous understanding of nature and that is the worst crime I can think of."  You would say this is reidiculous if for no other reason than all women are not alike. So regardless if there are some nuts out there, they have nothing to do with what women objectively are.


 But this is what you want to do with Christianity. You point out some incidents and proclaim Christianity as horrible without appreciating what it is and its essential purpose.


 I've read that the first psychological quality lost as society devolves into secularism is its sense of scale and relativity as they relate to objective value. You ask: "


So now we have a problem. Religion says it is God. Atheism says it is the universe sans God(s).


 faculty.up.edu/asarnow/greatchainofbeing...


 If the Great Chain of Being exists as the life's blood of the universe supporting the complimentary energy flows of involution and evolution - into creation and return to the source, then a source must exist for the laws of creation to arise. The question really is why object to it with such vehemence?  If Man has the potential for conscious evolution or to return to its origin, is it really such a horrible hypothesis? If we can accept mechanical physical evolution so easily and how  being changes as a result, why can't the being of Man change due to conscious evolution? But that is the essential message of Christianity initiating with "rebirth." Why hate it?  Panentheism provides the scale of being within which the Christian message makes sense to a scientific mind open to the Great Chain of Being. I can see the value of questioning but why hate it simply because of normal secular reactions to the devolution of a conscious idea? It seems as silly as me hating women because of the actions of certain women. It makes no logical sense.


 


 


 


 




 

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 18, 2014 - 3:41PM #26
christine3
Posts: 9,274

My problem is that Christianity and Panentheism want to insert God into nature. I just can't do that. Where I'm headed is in understanding nature, not as God, but as nature alone. I've said in the past to take a look at what you can find of surviving indigenous peoples' understanding of nature which allows them to do what Jesus did. 


Even the Gospel of Thomas is so Christianized one can hardly see the original founder in it.


John 12, 24-25 is so Christianized that the original founder is nowhere to be found. Ha how do you like that for the old switcheroo? (Double entendre)

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 18, 2014 - 4:12PM #27
christine3
Posts: 9,274

Oct 16, 2014 -- 9:16PM, 2BReal wrote:


Panentheism asserts that the whole is more than the sum of its parts so obviously strict atheism, which prides itself in measuring parts, cannot be open to the source of parts.




Okay, let's look at this sentence, "Panentheism asserts that the whole is more than the sum of it's parts..."


The words are reaching. The whole and the parts are made of the same energetic dynamics, but a part is smaller than a whole. I try not to see a bunch of parts equalling God. That's the only way the sum is greater than its parts. But if there is no God, no matter how many parts there are it isn't going to make a God.


Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 18, 2014 - 4:27PM #28
2BReal
Posts: 125

Oct 18, 2014 -- 4:12PM, christine3 wrote:


Oct 16, 2014 -- 9:16PM, 2BReal wrote:


Panentheism asserts that the whole is more than the sum of its parts so obviously strict atheism, which prides itself in measuring parts, cannot be open to the source of parts.




Okay, let's look at this sentence, "Panentheism asserts that the whole is more than the sum of it's parts..."


The words are reaching. The whole and the parts are made of the same energetic dynamics, but a part is smaller than a whole. I try not to see a bunch of parts equalling God. That's the only way the sum is greater than its parts. But if there is no God, no matter how many parts there are it isn't going to make a God.





 


 Even if a personal God wanted to change things it couldn't be done. To change on thing in nature would require changing everything since everything iin nature is connected. It is like a giant perpetual machine governed by universal laws. If you change one thing you must change what happened before. To do this the machine itself must be changed.


 This raises the question if this is true, can magick exist. Yes it does since magick is just the conscious manipulation of mechanical laws. Everything is still connected however laws can be consciously altered at particular places within their function. Conscious beings can exist in nature. We have the potential for a  quality of consciousness that transcends ordinary reactive animal consciousness.


 But the point here is that the living machine we know of as organic life on earth is working fine. The Source is only present through grace which is a quality of energy which for us furthers conscious evolution.


 In Genesis it is written that Man is to WORK in the garden. He is not to change it to serve him but help it serve its purpose. But suppose Man not only has the purpose of serving the earth but also a conscious purpose we are asleep to only possible through conscious evolution? Suppose Man not only serves the earth but also can serves in the conscious vertical  connection which connects the earth to higher consciousness. "As above, so below."  If only a few are aware of it, is the problem God or Man? If it is Man, why argue about God?  That is why I like Panentheism. it is mind expanding rather than petty and the heart feels its quality. A person feels their nothingness in front of it but IMO that is a good thing.




Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 18, 2014 - 5:20PM #29
christine3
Posts: 9,274


2BReal:  This raises the question if this is true, can magick exist. Yes it does since magick is just the conscious manipulation of mechanical laws. Everything is still connected however laws can be consciously altered at particular places within their function. Conscious beings can exist in nature. We have the potential for a  quality of consciousness that transcends ordinary reactive animal consciousness.


>>>>Where I bolded I think is an incorrect understanding on your part. Yes with 'magick' the conscious mind is involving itself in laws, but nothng is being manipulated. Laws cannot be consciously altered. We are in a better position evolutionarily to figure out how our minds can work in tandem with energy already operating. I don't think electromagnetic fields can be called God, or that we need to transcend ordinary reactive animal consciousness to do 'magick'. We ALL react to things, we ALL live in animal bodies, and yet some people know how to work along with energy in ways that are beyond the understanding of most people. And anyway, I really am put off by the word 'magick'. Crowley and his crowd, wanna-be Jesuses, coined that word.


2BReal: But the point here is that the living machine we know of as organic life on earth is working fine. The Source is only present through grace which is a quality of energy which for us furthers conscious evolution.


>>>>I am pretty certain the 'living machine' works fine without God, i.e., Source, grace. You'll have to prove to me that only God heals. IMO, God doesn't heal, man heals. I can point you to evidence that man heals by showing you indigenous ways man heals.


2BReal: In Genesis it is written that Man is to WORK in the garden. He is not to change it to serve him but help it serve its purpose. But suppose Man not only has the purpose of serving the earth but also a conscious purpose we are asleep to only possible through conscious evolution? Suppose Man not only serves the earth but also can serves in the conscious vertical  connection which connects the earth to higher consciousness. "As above, so below."  If only a few are aware of it, is the problem God or Man? If it is Man, why argue about God?  That is why I like Panentheism. it is mind expanding rather than petty and the heart feels its quality. A person feels their nothingness in front of it but IMO that is a good thing.


>>>>The Garden of Eden is a metaphor but also may have actually existed, not as Adam and Eve who talked to God in Paradise. Paradise was a metaphor for a time lost in the distant aeons of the past, where at one time there could have been higher understanding. The 'Paradise' part of the story fits that. The rest of the story doesn't make any sense. God warns that a kind of knowledge is bad. Once they have it they have to leave Paradise. That leaves an opening for many misinterpretations.  


Knowledge is lost and knowledge is found again. It is not destroyed forever. We can always attain a higher understanding than we have. If you want to call it higher consciousness in a vertical direction connected to God, I will always have problems with that thinking. It is easier to show higher understanding comes from man evolving.


Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2014 - 5:59PM #30
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 7,212

This thread has been moved from DA in part to boost the signal for this board.  It has many views, but up to this point has been mainly a read only board.  You might invite friends to join in the discussion, particularly those who might still be in the closet.  It is a protected board in the sense that only those interested in panentheism are permitted to post here.  (Panentheists and respectful guests.)  


There is also a pantheism board, but panentheism seems to be hotter at this point.  

Jcarlinbn, community moderator
Problems? Send a message to Beliefnet_community
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 3 of 3  •  Prev 1 2 3
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook