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Switch to Forum Live View inaccurate information about Baha'i
2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 12:25PM #21
Ironhold
Posts: 11,548

Jun 4, 2012 -- 11:23AM, world citizen wrote:


So, they got ALL of their Baha'i information from non-Baha'i sources.




This right here.


Pick an anti-Mormon work, and it's almost money that the sources are either non-Mormon, unauthorized, non-canonical, or well out of date.


It's a way to muddy the waters.


Actual members of the faith know the truth, but non-members won't know the difference.


It's out-and-out deception.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 12:52PM #22
Ironhold
Posts: 11,548

That evidence I wanted to see if the book was biased?


Here it is.


Jun 4, 2012 -- 11:12AM, Mercyonme wrote:


It says that Mormon doctrine does not believe there is one true God



[citation seriously needed]


What evidence does the author argue to back this up?


and that every other God is a false God



This doesn't even make a lick of sense.


The LDS faith holds that all other religions have some light, but that for various reasons - including the interference of man - the fullness of the light left this world until such time as Joseph Smith was called to re-establish everything. In its place were teachings that were inadequate at best and heinously contrary at worst. Preach My Gospel PDF version - you'll want page 31 of the main book.


In that sense, the theology encourages us to be more charitable to those of other faith traditions.


and LDS denies the biblical Gospel of Grace.



False.


Alma 34:28 echoes James ch. 2 in saying:


 28 And now behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you, do not suppose that this is all; for after ye have done all these things, if ye turn away the needy, and the naked, and visit not the sick and afflicted, and impart of your substance, if ye have, to those who stand in need—I say unto you, if ye do not any of these things, behold, your prayer is vain, and availeth you nothing, and ye are as hypocrites who do deny the faith.


This is because, to quote Nephi, (2 Nephi 25:23):


 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.


In the LDS faith, it's not enough to just say "I believe!" and presume that one is on a direct course to Heaven.


Rather, the church holds that, as Jesus commanded in Matthew 5:14, we must be the "light of the world". Thus, our actions - in fact, our very lives - must back up our words. Otherwise, our professions of faith are regarded as vain.


This isn't a new concept to Christianity, either; in his book The Cost of Discipleship, Deitrich Boenhoffer warned about "cheap grace", which is where a person demands membership in the church but isn't willing to put forth the typical requirements. Instead, Boenhoffer warns that people need to favor "costly grace", which is the grace that requires one to actually live what they preach.


Thing is, because the church says "your actions must match your words", we're accused of believing in salvation by works.


LDS has a "different Gospel" and a different Jesus than theirs [evangelicals].  In 1998, the Mormon prophet Gordon B Hinckly confessed that he believed in a different Jesus than the "traditional Christ" worshipped by those outside the LDS Church.



Thing is, most critics of the church take his words out of context.


They come at it from the presumption that their understanding of God is automatically the correct one, and so any deviation from their norm is a sign that someone is wrong.


Instead, what Hinckley said was "our theology is different from the theology of most other Christian faiths".


...which is only to be expected considering that the church regards itself as a restoration rather than just another branch.


---this also has information from Ron Rhodes "Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Mormons" and Jerald & Sandra Tanner "Mormonism: Shadow or Reality.




The Tanners are full of it; their most common tactic is to use ellipses (the little "..." you sometimes see) to delete anything from a citation that's inconvenient to the story they want to tell. Failing that, the two take things massively out of context.


For example, consider Alma 18:11 -


 11 Now I surely know that this is the Great Spirit, and I would desire him that he come in unto me, but I durst not.


The Tanners actually tried to argue that this verse "proves" the Book of Mormon teaches that God is incorporeal and that it contradicts the church's own theology.


Thing is, in the process of making their assertion, they deliberately ignored verse 5 of the same chapter:


 Now this was the tradition of Lamoni, which he had received from his father, that there was a Great Spirit. Notwithstanding they believed in a Great Spirit, they supposed that whatsoever they did was right; nevertheless, Lamoni began to fear exceedingly, with fear lest he had done wrong in slaying his servants;


Ammon, a missionary, found himself in hostile lands. Rather than begin preaching openly, he sought work as a servant in the household of the king. When he single-handedly defeated a group of marauders who were stealing the king's flocks (the problem was so bad that any servant who failed to defend their flocks faced execution), Ammon finally had an audience in which to preach.


And so, much like Paul at Mars Hill, Ammon decided to co-opt part of the then-existing theology of the people to whom he was witnessing in order to better impress upon them his message.


Thus, verse 11 has nothing to do with God's nature; instead, it's simply part of the discussion between Ammon and the king.


So yeah - the Tanners don't have a very good reputation for academic honesty, and that was before the plagiarism scandal from a few years ago (they hosted an entire chapter of a copyrighted church manual on their website w/o permission; under US law, that's illegal).

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 2:02PM #23
Aka_me
Posts: 12,292

Jun 3, 2012 -- 8:39PM, Ironhold wrote:

Someone, somewhere, ran some numbers and decided that the time frame JS put down included the year that Baha'lu'lah began ministering. Thus, this person argued that JS was actually prophesying the Baha'i faith and that any Mormon who truly believed in JS should actually go become Baha'i.



I don't think trying to correct mistakes in books will actually amount to anything.


the books have already been published, are book owners supposed to throw out their copy once the corrected version is released?


if people cared about being correct they would have already bounced the material off someone capable of correcting it so as to make sure what they say is correct.


take for instance "Baha'lu'lah began ministering"


spelled Baha'u'llah... actually met His first western visitors in the same year JS would have been 85 had he not been unjustly murdered. vastly different from beginning a ministry.


multiple prophecies coincide, but that doesn't mean anyone must convert.


it's just interesting to see how things JS said align with what the Baha'i Faith says.


CORRECTION: 1st of the 2 links replaced due to content at site.

The UN says the ebola outbreak must be controlled within 60 days or else the world faces an "unprecedented" situation for which there is no plan.
this is absolutely fantastic as it unites the world into being OUR problem rather than THEIR problem.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 3:24PM #24
Mercyonme
Posts: 38

This is going to be waaaay off subject. Aka-Me, I briefly hit on that first link enough to see that that have a picture of Baha'u'llah, which I would recommend not reposting.  My understanding is that there was 1 picture and if you go on Pilgrimage you can see it in the shrine.  There was a picture circulating and Baha'is were asked not to make copies, see, distribute etc. (correct me if I'm wrong)...honest mistake, but I feel a little wronged. That was something I was waiting to see when I go on Pilgrimage some day..in a Holy experience surrounded by love and prayer.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 4:30PM #25
Aka_me
Posts: 12,292

Jun 4, 2012 -- 3:24PM, Mercyonme wrote:


This is going to be waaaay off subject. Aka-Me, I briefly hit on that first link enough to see that that have a picture of Baha'u'llah, which I would recommend not reposting.



good point... has been remedied. sorry.

The UN says the ebola outbreak must be controlled within 60 days or else the world faces an "unprecedented" situation for which there is no plan.
this is absolutely fantastic as it unites the world into being OUR problem rather than THEIR problem.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 5:11PM #26
Ironhold
Posts: 11,548

Jun 4, 2012 -- 2:02PM, Aka_me wrote:


I don't think trying to correct mistakes in books will actually amount to anything.


the books have already been published, are book owners supposed to throw out their copy once the corrected version is released?


if people cared about being correct they would have already bounced the material off someone capable of correcting it so as to make sure what they say is correct.




[shakes head]


An honest academic will always invite reasoned challenges to their materials; it's how things work. Such challenges serve as a way of ensuring that the actual truth is always in the forefront, and that false material isn't being circulated.


In this case, if we can convince the professor that the textbook is spreading bad information, there's a chance that the professor will respond by looking for a textbook that actually knows what it's talking about. In that sense, future students will get the truth rather than distortions.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 5:21PM #27
Mercyonme
Posts: 38

The description of this course suggests that multiple religious apologetics will be looked at.  I truly cannot wait to get the that part of the course and plan to definitely point out the flaws in this book.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 6:18PM #28
world citizen
Posts: 5,540

Any website containing photos of the Bab and/or Baha'u'llah is a guaranteed Covenant breaker website and should be avoided.

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 7:43PM #29
Ironhold
Posts: 11,548

Jun 4, 2012 -- 5:21PM, Mercyonme wrote:


The description of this course suggests that multiple religious apologetics will be looked at.  I truly cannot wait to get the that part of the course and plan to definitely point out the flaws in this book.




Why wait?


Why not contact your prof now if you have the relevant info?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 8:32PM #30
Mercyonme
Posts: 38

I thought about that.  I actually wrote out a letter.  Now really would be the time to do it too because once my class actually starts I'll have enough work to do besides researching corrections to their apologetics book.  


I also plan on purchasing that Baha'i apologetics book that was refered to.  Hopefully I can find it cheap on ebay.  


I also think it would be a good idea to include the false info about the Mormon's so they don't try to blow it off as a mistake, but might actually look to see that lots of info in the book is wrong.  In the end, we're talking about an extremely "far right" Christian college and I in the end will have to just accept that they won't want to give on anything.

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