Post Reply
Page 2 of 2  •  Prev 1 2
2 years ago  ::  Sep 07, 2012 - 5:12PM #11
gorm-sionnach
Posts: 1,663

Sep 7, 2012 -- 2:09PM, Hummingturtle wrote:


I will not longer reply after this one and simpy say here I choose to agree to disagree.


I have never in my life of posting online, especially on a Pagan forum have my words pulled apart, twisted and attacked as wrong when I simply state my point of view, mine may not be right for another living person on this planet (or the universe for that matter) but the OP was wanting feedback, I give it and now I am attacked. Sad Beliefnet has turned into this, may be the reason it is a dead site now. Why one would feel the need to dissect, debate and belittle my simple point of view is beyond me, what does it truly matter? OP asks for feedback, advice, maybe just to see different ideas and I am made out to be an uneducated heathen ready for my trip to Hell.



I'm not sure where anyone (I) has (have) "attacked" you, unless you count having a differing opinion an attack, or being critical of broad statements like "don't judge". An attack, imo, would included overt ridicule, name calling and such.


Please show me where I mentioned the terms "Heathen", "Hell", or any extolled the idea that you (or your views) were worthy of eternal torment? 


I never said to pick a symbol and worship it or anything without educating one's self on it's meaning history etc.. but it looks like that was assumed. I never called those symbols the play-dough of our own personal beliefs and that we can mold and shape them however we want... but of course (duh) part of finding/discovering your beliefs finding that comfort and peace is learning about those Gods and Goddesses, the history, the mythology and even the folklore behind any and all symbols or figures. Maybe in the process of that, one could learn that a blended path is NOT the right one for them, but "insert religion name here" is the perfect one for them... they then fully submerse them-self in it and leave all the blended part behind. NOT everyone  are born or raised a certain religion, some take years to discover their one true belief or religion... some never find one.



You stated that people ought to be able to blen and mix-match, regardless of culture or context, so yes you certainly infered this notion; by mixing and matching cultural symbols, one necessarily glosses over the cultural value of those symbols.


]TO call me  wrote:

TO call me asinine, silly or whatever for my own point of view is pointless... I do not judge others for their briefs yet you say "Throw out virture, ethics and morality. Throw out standards and expectations. Throw out challenge and excellence, and settle for mediocrity. Don't do better, because that would require effort and who needs that when we have platitudes and banality?" IN the end people will live how they want.



Calling an opinion or idea assanine is wholly different from calling the one holding the idea the same; a subtle, but necessary distinction. Ah, see now you've changed the context. Your original statement was "No one can judge only the creator has the right and power...", this was the statement I disagreed with. Judging (or not judging) someone based on their beliefs, is an entirely different thing altogether.


]I have not shared my own personal beliefs on here, I have not explained how I live, the specifics of anything as far as ME and what I believe (I do openly say Pagan here)  wrote:

I have not shared my own personal beliefs on here, I have not explained how I live, the specifics of anything as far as ME and what I believe (I do openly say Pagan here) But to say due to my non-judgmental personality I(or someone like me) live with no virtue, no ethics, no standards, no morals, are mediocre in life, make no effort to better myself, my life etc is a crock of bat guano. I will not defend or debate my life, my beliefs on here or anywhere else simply due to those hateful and wildly generalized/uneducated/assumed judgments.



If you don't have discernment, if you do not make choices (judgement), if you do not have a set of standards (note I never said anything about universal, only personal standards) then you lack the ability to be moral, ethical, virtuous, or strive for excellence. The idea that "no one can judge" is based in the Christian conception of all being equal in sin, all being wicked and fallen, and so no one having the ability to judge another because they are equally awful. I've no idea how this bit of theology has managed to creep so sucessfully into Paganism as a whole, probabyl to do with the idea of intolerance and moral high horses, but it makes no sense in a world devoid of sin.


]Furthermore not a single one of us living know without a doubt what is right or wrong what will cause "peril" and what won't in terms of  wrote:

Furthermore not a single one of us living know without a doubt what is right or wrong what will cause "peril" and what won't in terms of religious beliefs the afterlife etc because as far as I know we are all alive and breathing, none of us are dead OR GOD. So unless one is God, there is no 100% guarantee that any of the religious rhetoric is factual until we pass and  reach the center of the Web Of Life.



The idea was that an individual deciding what a god or goddess was, as opposed to letting the god or goddess decide what they are, is foolhardy at best, and perilous at worst. Not sure where being a god fits into this?


]I am done here, this is why people are the way they are, one of the reasons the world is how it is, sad sad reality for many, the intolerance, judgments, assumptions and hate is prevalent, that is why few choose to share anything, many stay hidden, that force-fed my way or the highway mentality/dogma/rhetoric/no matter what you are wrong attitude is sick.



So you give up at the first fellow you meet who holds a difference of opinion, and questions the very broad, sweeping  wrote:

I am done here, this is why people are the way they are, one of the reasons the world is how it is, sad sad reality for many, the intolerance, judgments, assumptions and hate is prevalent, that is why few choose to share anything, many stay hidden, that force-fed my way or the highway mentality/dogma/rhetoric/no matter what you are wrong attitude is sick.[/quote]


So you give up at the first fellow you meet who holds a difference of opinion, and questions the very broad, sweeping statements you've made? Please show me where I have expressed "force feeding, my way or the highway, hatred, dogma, rhetoric, etc." Stating an opinion, and then backing up that opinion with reason is a far cry from telling you you have no right to believe what you do, nor should you be able to practice it.


]Live and let live, allow creator to do his/her/its job and simply live  wrote:

Live and let live, allow creator to do his/her/its job and simply live your own live. Do not attack others when they share their point of view, their point of view is not wrong, it is theirs (may be wrong to you but that is you) allow people to share, express and do so without attacking or dissecting everything, because in the end being an overbearing bigot does nothing productive.




So, having a difference of opinion, being able to articulate that opinion, explaining why I hold that opinion, and expressing disagreement with anothers opinion makes me a domineering, hate-filled bigot?


Wow, that is some great "not judging others", right there.

Truth in our hearts, Strength in our arms, Fulfillment in our tongues.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Sep 09, 2012 - 5:16PM #12
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

Sep 7, 2012 -- 1:04PM, gorm-sionnach wrote:



In regards to utilizing symbols because they are familiar or liked, but ignoring the meaning and symbolism behind them, there is a word for that: appropriation. Implying that people can just project whatever attributes onto which ever figure they like, denies the reality of the individual existence of those entities. Gods are not just some vauge concepts we get to mould into whatever image we want them to be. Gods have personalities and attributes, and by ignoring their natures, you do so at your own peril.




To give your own ideas and try to force them on to symbols or gods, implies that the person really does not believe the gods are real.



A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Sep 09, 2012 - 5:23PM #13
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

Gorm I saw nothing wrong with your posts. But I have noticed many who come from a christian back ground and hold onto it, see all disagreement as attack. And can not handle it. Which is a shame. Discussion can be enjoyable.



And you can tell by the monotheistic use of the word god that, that is the mindset it is coming from.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jan 03, 2013 - 2:27PM #14
WaveWalker
Posts: 3

AshGirl,


My mother was Catholic (returned to it in her latter years, from being Independant Christian).  I used to tease her constantly about being a closet Pagan! Laughing  She also felt an affinity for Earth Spirituality, and probably did some things that would have made her Priest cringe, but her faith and belief was "Catholic", and while she may have disagreed with The Church, she abided by their teaching. 
That said, she had no problems with my adult choice of Pagan, and as always, we had wonderful theological discussions.


Can you blend Catholicism and Paganism?  Well, not and call yourself either "Catholic" or "Pagan", and not without offending the Christian God, and more than a few Pagan ones.


This is not my "opinion", it simply is what it is if you believe that the Gods are real entities with their own sets of rules and requirements for their adherents.   I stand with Gorm on this count.


Yahweh is by His own definition a "Jealous God", who will have no other Gods come before him, or even be acknowledged, and will not tolerate His adherents following any other Gods.  That's not me saying it, that's Biblical, it is in the Bible, and is in all Judaical teachings.  You cannot worship Yahweh, and also worship other Gods, and those are His rules.


Pagan Deities? Meh... Some play better in a sandbox than others, but you'd have to study them.  My recommendation to new folks I've worked with is get to know your Deities very well before dedicating yourself to any of them.  Most likely NONE of them (even Buddha) would care to share Altar space with Yahweh, and I would strongly NOT recommend it.   And again, I lay that stricture squarely at Yahweh's feet.... let me clarify that - if you have an Altar to any other Gods, then DON"T create an Altar for Yahweh under the same roof. Laughing Leave that at the Catholic Church you visit.


All Gods have their rites, requirements, strictures, and preferences in worship.  As Gorm has said - if one believes that the Gods are real, then one must acknowledge who and what they are, and what they represent.  
I view the Gods as Archetypes, as much as I do as distinct Entities.   But even if viewed solely as Archetypes, then those Archetypes must be respected and not bent to one's own convenience.


If you feel the pull to attend Catholic services, then do go.  But don't join the Catholic church as long as you feel the pull to Paganism; be honest about why you don't join when you are asked, and DON"T go up for Communion - that action would be a violation of the vows and symbolism entailed, and would be an offront of the greatest magnitude to Yahweh.


If you feel the pull of Paganism, then study the Gods and sacred texts of other religions, but don't join any of them as long as you feel the pull to Catholicism; and again be honest when asked why you don't join.


Truth be said, you might want to study the Christian Gnostics and Essenes.  It seems their path is more closely aligned to the path you are describing - but remember the Catholic Church sees them as Heretics, so again, not a good blend with Catholicism.


Keep this in mind - you can be a devoted and oath-bound member of -almost- any Spirituality (Including many Christian denominations) while still acknowledging the beauty in, and the important lessons provided by, other Spiritualities.
I would hold up as an example of the highest order of this view, as Joseph Campbell - a Theologian of remarkable wisdom and insight.  He stepped between the worlds of Spirit with amazing dexterity and respect.  He showed the Universality of Spirit, while respecting the integrity of each Faith, and it's Gods.


 - and there is the Key - understand the thread that weaves the Web, but respect the individuality and integrity of each of it's components. 


Bright Blessings as you find your Path.


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
10 months ago  ::  Dec 23, 2013 - 10:43PM #15
Freestyle
Posts: 123

May 22, 2012 -- 11:45PM, AshGirl wrote:

I have a question.  I have gone back and forth between Catholicism and Paganism over the last decade or so, and every time I get comfortable with one, I feel like I am being called back to the other.  I have 3 small children, and they are all baptized Catholic and we attend mass each week as a family.  I love so many things about the Catholic church, but the "belief" part is missing.  I have a strong respect for Jesus and Mary, and I can even see them as aspects of the God/Goddess, but I struggle with the whole Christian world view.  

 I believe that the Catholic church teaches good morals to my children, but I feel like it is lacking in many ways.  Is it possible to blend the religions?  I would like to still attend church, but worship as a Pagan in private.  

Is this completely hypocritical?  Would it be wrong to teach my children Pagan beliefs, but ask them to not mention them among members of the Catholic church?



Blending paths is dangerous because that would contradict the original or orthodox teachings that each religion is known for.  Although my research confirms Paganism to be of Irish Catholic origin, the two are mutually exclusive.  I suggest practicing Paganism in a Catholic setting and read the Bible in lieu with the Nexus (or Tao Te Ching).  What more, the flow from Catholic to Pagan and back is part of being Pagan.  Yes, let your children be Catholic, but as for you, I recommend you practice Paganism in a way that is loving and caring as according to the Catholic Church.  Don't worry -- you will be all right.


Blessed be.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 2 of 2  •  Prev 1 2
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook