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Switch to Forum Live View Mohammad = the Messiah?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:08PM #31
visio
Posts: 3,121

Apr 17, 2012 -- 11:24AM, Dudette wrote:


Hi visio!


You write:


If you notice in the Al-Quran there is no such word as Christian being used to refer to the followers of Jesus.  The term used is Nasarani, inspite of the fact that Christianity had been canonised a few hundred years before Muhammadsaw/Al-Quran.


That is very interesting to me because I don't think that the followers of Jesus should have been named Christians but Messianic Jews.  I don't think that Jesus came to create a new religion and I would think he would have wanted people to follow God, not him.




I fully agree with you.   In the context of Islam and the Al-Quran the true followers of Isasaw (Jesus) are what is being referred to as the kitabis, i.e. People of the Book.   The same applies to the true followers of Musasaw (Moses) and Dawoodsw (David).   Muslim men, as recommended in the Al-Quran, under this definition, are allowed to marry those women of the People of the Book (kitabis) without the mandate to convert to Islam.   For Muslim women to marry men of the People of the Book (kitabis), it is mandated that they have to convert before tying the marital knots with any Muslim women.   In a Muslim family God/ALLAHswt has entrusted men to be the spiritual leader of the family and thus establish and sustain the knowledge as well as the Commands of Works leading mankind to the way (deen/din) back to him both in soul and spirit.   Contrary to popular belief and in the most practical sense it is women who are the true protectors of a faith/religion generation after generation.  This is the background concept/precept behind the Islamic Laws on marriage.  Many Muslims are not clear about this.   There are a lot of difficulties in the present days to determine who are and who are not the People of the Book similar to those who lived during the time of Muhammadsaw.   Therefore, to be on the safe side and in realisation of this fact  the edict (fatwas) issued by many Islamic authorities in various countries is the requirement to non-Muslim to convert.   And many Muslims to-day, perhaps without deep knowledge of the Saharia Law, have abused the Laws and take it upon themselves that the Christians are people of the Book (kitabis). If I used what Isasaw (Jesus) described as Higher Laws for bani-Israel (Children of Israel) the way of life are observation of the many point of Law found in a chapter of GoN (Gospel of Nazarene):



CHAPTER 46: The Transfiguration on the Mount.



The Giving of the Law



1.After six days, when the Feast of Tabernacles was near at hand, Yeshua took the twelve and brought them separately up into a high mountain, and as he was praying his appearance was changed , and he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.



2.And, behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him and speaking of the law, and of His decease (1997 translation reads "purpose")  which He should accomplish at Jerusalem 



3.And Moses spoke, saying, "This is He of whom I foretold saying, 'a prophet from the midst of your brothers like myself, will the eternal send to you, and that which the eternal reveals to him, he will tell you. And to him will you listen. Those who will not obey will bring their own destruction upon themselves'."



4.Then Peter said to Yeshua, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if you will let us make three tabernacles here; one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elias.



5.While he still spoke, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and twelve rays as of the sun issued from behind the cloud, and a voice came out of the cloud, which said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; Do you hear him."



46 : 6   And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were amazed. And Yeshua came and touched them and said, "Arise and be not afraid." And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Yeshua only. And the six glories were seen upon him.



46 : 7 And Yeshua said to them, "Behold a new law I give to you, which is not new but old. Even as Moses gave the Ten Commandments to Israel after the flesh , so also I give to you the twelve for the kingdom of Israel after the spirit."



46 : 8 For who are the Israel of God? Even they of every nation and tribe who work righteousness, love, mercy and keep my commandments, these are the true Israel of God. And standing upon his feet, Yeshua spoke, saying:



46 : 9 "Hear O Israel, IOVA, Thy God is One; Many are My seers, and My prophets. In me all live and move, and have subsistence.":



46 : 10 "You Shall not take away the life of any creature for your pleasure, nor for your profit, nor yet torment it."



46 : 11 "You Shall not steal the goods of any, nor gather lands and riches to yourselves, beyond your need or use."



46 : 12 "You shall not eat the flesh , nor drink the blood of any slaughtered creature, not yet anything which brings disorder to your health or senses.



46 : 13 "You shall not make impure marriages, where love and health are not, nor yet corrupt yourselves, or any creature made pure by the holy." 



46 : 14 "You shall not bear false witness against any, nor willfully deceive any by a lie to hurt them."



46 : 15 "You shall not do to others, as you would not that others should do to you."



46 : 16 "You shall worship One eternal, the Father-Mother in heaven, of whom are all things, and reverence the holy name."



46 : 17 "You shall revere your fathers and your mothers on earth, whose care is for you, and all the teachers of righteousness."



46 : 18 "You shall cherish and protect the weak, and those who are oppressed, and all creatures that suffer wrong."



46 : 19 "You shall work with your hands the things that are good and seemly; so will you eat the fruits of the earth, and live long in the land."



46 : 20 "You will purify yourselves daily and rest the seventh day from labor, keeping holy the Sabbath and the festivals of your God."



46 : 21 "You shall do to others, as you would that others should do to you."



46 : 22 And when the disciples heard these words, they beat on their breasts, saying, "Wherein we have offended, O God forgive us; and may thy wisdom, love and truth within us, incline our hearts to love and keep this Holy Law."



46 : 23 And Yeshua said to them, "My yoke is equal and my burden light, if you will to bear it, to you it will be easy. Lay no other burden on those that enter into the kingdom, but only these necessary things."



46 : 24 "This is the new law to the Israel of God, and the law is within, for it is the law of love, and it is not new but old. Take heed that you add nothing to this law, neither take anything from it. They who believe and obey this law will be saved, and they who don't know and obey it will be lost."



46 : 25   "But as in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive. And the disobedient will be purged through many fires; and they who persist will descend and will perish eternally."



26.And as they came down from the mountain, Yeshua charged them saying, "Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of Man has risen again from the dead." (1997 version reads: Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of Man be risen again from among them that sleep")



27.His disciples asked Him, , "Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?" And Yeshua answered and said to them, "Elias truly will first come and restore all things."



28."But I say to you, that Elias is come already, and they did not know him, but have done to him whatsoever they listed. Likewise the Son of Man will also suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist.


Comment:   There are others, especially on avoiding of strong drinks, in a different chapter of Gon.  May be I'll post it separately.   Many of the edicts (fatwas) I bolded, are in no way dissimilar with what are being taught in the Al-Quran.




You ask:


Can you please phrase this out again?  I am not clear on the question.  And I am glad that I know that you are a French.


Sorry about that...  What I was trying to say is (starting with the fact that the Koran has kept only the 1st 5 books and Psalms of the Tanakh) if many prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures are mentioned in the Koran, why not keep the books of the prophets (from the Tanakh) too?  I hope this is better...


Unfortunately, I don't know what Ifta means?  I will ask the person who gave it to me and get back to you.



Let me know when you’ve got the answer.


You also write:


I don't speak Arabic but I could read Al-Quranic Arabic. 


How is that possible?



It is a long history.  Before  Christian Colonial Power came to my part of the world in 1511,  Islam had  spread in most part of the region.  Islamic government/administration system had already been established.   Arabic alphabets were introduced and used in all administrative letters to write the prevailing language and started to be used in the education system, in whatever forms they were made available, in those days.  Knowing the alphabets made it easier to read the Arabic Al-Quran


You add:


Asking other people of different scriptural background would certainly help in a big way, however, please do you own thinking and be as open-minded as possible. 


I would have to say that I know so very little about Islam that I'm in the gathering information stage...but I understand what you mean.




I always believe that in whatever scriptures you (generic) are holding on to, it wouldn’t help you spiritually personally if you don’t overgrow it.   God/ALLAHswt doesn’t repeat the same lines for all of His Revelation sent down across all ages.  The similitudes, the parables and the riddles were all adjusted to the capacity of mankind to think and ask questions.   My approach on B’net has always been to expose, as best as possible, how to overgrow, in my case, Islam/Al-Quran without leaving it.  And hopefully others can share it.   After all we’ll all end up in God/ALLAHswt.  Even the rocks and the stars, all ends up in God/ALLAHswt.   It is a matter of when, with or without difficulties now or later.   




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2 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 11:48AM #32
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hi visio!


I find the information given from the GoN very interesting...thank you!


I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding "to overgrow Scriptures".  Can you help me better understand?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 9:48PM #33
visio
Posts: 3,121

Apr 18, 2012 -- 11:48AM, Dudette wrote:


Hi visio!


I find the information given from the GoN very interesting...thank you!


I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding "to overgrow Scriptures".  Can you help me better understand?




Scriptures generally and basically represents divine messages that define our relatioship with Almighty God/ALLAHswt as the root cause of all creations including Man.  Man being the centre focus of all creation has the dual function as the tool of God/Almighty ALLAHswt to sustain the whole creation from the beginningless of time to the endless of time as well as his representative/guide.   For the former Man is the slave/servant.   For the latter Man is the Messenger.  By God/ALLAHswt Grand Design the knowledge of the relationship, the works command of being the divine servant/slave and the divine messenger of God/ALLAHswt  were erased and made forgotten after he/she is created.  For this reason, God/ALLAHswt chose among Man, Messengers/Prophets/Rasool thru whom those knowledge/commands were revealed as guidance and tools to remind Man of his/her relationship with God/ALLAHswt, the specific divine works command as well as the messenger/caliph function within their ownself. The revelations came in packages as dictated by time and capacity of the targetted community to understand or not and/or obey or resist.   As such contents between scriptures and their forms of articulation may also vary.  There are things that are apparent and there things that are hidden (abstract).   When I say overgrow Scriptures, it means we develop our own understanding beyond the apparent and work into the hidden (abstract meanings) of those revealed words in the Scriptures.  It is normal to expect words of extreme contrast, such as of good and evil in Scriptures.   It is just that thru fear people would remember.  Considering that our journey to God/ALLAHswt is a loooooong journey, threatening words of God/ALLAHswt must be taken positively as a notice to remind us to obey all of His Commands.  Worshipping God/ALLAHswt is a MUST by virtue that each of us, in our First Spiritual Existence were raised from the dead earth (in case of bani-Adam) and dead heaven (in case of bani-Israel).  Overgrowing Scriptures thus help us more in understanding all the reasons/rational why Scriptures tell us do this and do that. 


Hopefully, the above give some general idea.   In Islam, the path towards ALLAHswt evolve thru stages defined as  SHARIAT >>>>HAQIQAT >>>>>TARIQAT >>>> MAARIFAT i.e. Muslims begin with observing the basic commands for the needs of the physical bodies as commanded, then proceed to expose themselves with knowledge of Reality - both the apparent and hidden, then focus on specific methods of the many available ones, that would suit him best with the hope that he/she would experience Maarifat in this lifetime.  Ma'arifat means absorved momentarily in ALLAHswt Presence to realise the reality of our relationship with God/ALLAHswt, who we are and why we are here.  There is no certainty that one's hope is to be answered, but that's the bidding already given BY God/ALLAHswt.   During the golden era of Islamic Civilisation, Muslims were competing with each other to just having an experience of maarifat.   But to-day, most are so busy with materialism.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 11:57AM #34
Dudette
Posts: 137

Hi visio!


Thank you for the info!


You write:


When I say overgrow Scriptures, it means we develop our own understanding beyond the apparent and work into the hidden (abstract meanings) of those revealed words in the Scriptures.


My experience has taught me that there are many ways to interpret Scriptures and my conclusion (so far) is that there is no way to know for sure other than have a pretty good idea.


You write:


It is just that thru fear people would remember.  Considering that our journey to God/ALLAHswt is a loooooong journey, threatening words of God/ALLAHswt must be taken positively as a notice to remind us to obey all of His Commands.   


Is it like the fear of hell?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 9:02PM #35
visio
Posts: 3,121

Apr 19, 2012 -- 11:57AM, Dudette wrote:


Hi visio!


Thank you for the info!


You write:


When I say overgrow Scriptures, it means we develop our own understanding beyond the apparent and work into the hidden (abstract meanings) of those revealed words in the Scriptures.


My experience has taught me that there are many ways to interpret Scriptures and my conclusion (so far) is that there is no way to know for sure other than have a pretty good idea.



They are dependent upon one's cerebral and spiritual maturity.   Interpretation of Divine words in scriptures transcends thru your cerebral thoughts reasoning, into the spiritual/mind preception and the soul's feelings and consciousness.   The idea of truth, thus, transcends thru, basically, those three planes.


You write:


It is just that thru fear people would remember.  Considering that our journey to God/ALLAHswt is a loooooong journey, threatening words of God/ALLAHswt must be taken positively as a notice to remind us to obey all of His Commands.   


Is it like the fear of hell?




A question is have you seen hell?, or, have you felt hell?   In a sense of the Al-Quran, hell is to be felt both in the kingdom of the Earth and Israel (the so-called heaven).   What are beyond those are the true heaven that theistic Man dreams of or strive for after they fulfill all the Divine Commands transmitted by their respective Messiah (Messengers of God/ALLAHswt) governed by both the Lower Laws (bani-Adam) and Higher Laws (bani-Israel).   Muhammadsaw, by virtue of the Al-Quran revealed, transmitted Laws and knowledge about them, for both, to complete the human messiahship (messengership)

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