Dec 23, 2011 -- 11:30PM, Andrearae wrote:

First off I want to say I am new to beliefnet and I am researching religions to find the one that fits with how i see the Bible saying. I have started my bible studies and research somewhat recently. I am not expert but I am no dumby. Also I believe we all have our beliefs and rarely can debating or arguing change anothers belief.

I came across this site because as I was starting my research I didn't know where to begin so I googled "what religion am i" and decided it would be fun to take the test on here. However I was shocked to find that I was 100% LDS. My husband was raised in a mormon home but never got into it. He doesnt remember much about what he learned growing up so he's not someone to have the best discussions with. After reseaching and reading some I see how some beliefs of LDS match mine HOWEVER, the bases of which the The book of mormon and all that it is I dont believe. So this has me confused. I do not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet because I do not believe the people, places and insidents are true. There is no maps to show where these things happened, no proof that the American Indians are descendents of Laminites and there are no artifacts of any kind. And if the book of mormon was true then with millions of people living in cities would have left something for archeologist to find later. You can trace to where and who the Bible talks about.

So this brings me to my question, if you are a mormon and you believe the book of mormon to be true and that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God can you explain to me why you believe? I have asked a few missionaries and home teachers but they all just say pray and wait to feel the Holy Spirit. I do that and believe in that but my heart & mindcan not get past what I stated above. I guess I am interested in the stories/testimonies that others have that made them know despite all the evidence pointing to the Booki of Mormon as false such ans such proves it is true....make sense?


PS I dont want to offend anyone who is LDS. Trust me my inlaws are all mormon and I respect their beliefs. I am just searching for my church.

Go to Mormon.org, there are folks there that can help you.

Dec 23, 2011 -- 11:30PM, Andrearae wrote:

I came across this site because as I was starting my research I didn't know where to begin so I googled "what religion am i" and decided it would be fun to take the test on here. However I was shocked to find that I was 100% LDS. . . . After reseaching and reading some I see how some beliefs of LDS match mine HOWEVER, the bases of which the The book of mormon and all that it is I dont believe. So this has me confused. I do not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet because I do not believe the people, places and insidents are true. There is no maps to show where these things happened, no proof that the American Indians are descendents of Laminites and there are no artifacts of any kind. And if the book of mormon was true then with millions of people living in cities would have left something for archeologist to find later. You can trace to where and who the Bible talks about.

So this brings me to my question, if you are a mormon and you believe the book of mormon to be true and that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God can you explain to me why you believe?

First, I'm not surprised that you would find yourself matching Mormon beliefs so heavily on the Beliefnet test.  While you have identified Mormon beliefs with which you know you disagree, the Beliefnet test focuses on core beliefs - not trivia, not background info on how the faith got started - and it's in that area that quite a few people discover that they have a lot in common with the Mormons.

For many people, the LDS faith is obviously wrong, obviously a non-starter, obviously the wrong path - even if they know very little about it.  That's partly because what little they do know is a caricature.  They've never heard the story presented to them in context.  What they've gotten are snippets of information, often out of context, and often distorted in such a way that it comes across to them as grotesque.  So, obviously the Mormons are "out there."  Imagine the surprise when they discover that - when it comes to the big issues that make up daily belief and practice - they find themselves in such agreement with the Mormons.

How can this be?  The best way to really appreciate the Mormon outlook is to take the missionary discussions, each one in sequence, and to let the missionaries make the case - in context.  You may still disagree but at least you'll have given yourself the chance to at least appreciate why the Mormons feel as strongly as they do about their faith.

Most people who trash the Mormons (and I'm not saying you're one of them, not at all) don't really know anything about the Mormons other than those odd little snippets.  They can't say they disagree with the Mormons because they don't really know what the Mormons believe.  They just know what non-Mormons say about the Mormons.

Of course, there are always a few Mormons who would be odd ducks, even among Mormons.  Every ward has at least a few.  If you run into one or more of them, you could also end up thinking all Mormons are odd ducks.  Every religion has at least a few people for whom ordinary belief isn't enough.  For example, there are Jews and then there are the ultra-Orthodox; there are Muslims and then there are Islamic Fundamentalists.  There are Christians and then there are people who think it's a sin to turn on a radio.

Years before I joined the LDS Church, I had a girlfriend - or someone who wanted to be my girlfriend - who used to tell me what she believed and it made me want to run screaming into the night.  Her "sharing" didn't really do it for me.  If her faith had been the odd stuff she decided to share with me, I'd have never come near it with a ten-foot pole.

MY EXPERIENCE

I was raised a Baptist, though my mother remained Agnostic till shortly before her death.  I was baptized at the age of nine and spent the next four years being swept up in all that it meant to be a Baptist.  We would do church twice on Sunday, with a midweek meeting on Wednesday.  My father used to take me with him to Monday-night Bible study and it seems like there was another night in there - Tuesday or Thursday - when there were additional Youth Group and geezer meetings.  The Monday-night meetings were in the homes of those who wanted to get more out of studying the Bible.  This did a lot for me, in terms of helping me become a strong reader.  I ended up taking this experience quite seriously.  Instead of hanging out with the other kids at Youth Group, I spent a lot of time with the adults.  Had we continued on this way, I'd have probably become a Baptist preacher.

Instead, my father got a job on the other side of the country and we ended up in a different church, one that was also Baptist but different enough that I began to take a step back to look at what I was being taught.  During this time I was exposed to the televangelists - Ernest Angeley, Jim Bakker (PTL), Jimmy Swaggart, Kenneth Copeland, Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell (Moral Majority), Billy Graham and Pat Robertson.  

Between the ages of 13 and 15, I began to question whether the instant salvation of these preachers - and much of Protestantism - was really the truth.  During that time, a lot of these guys were also starting to fall from grace.  My father and I went to one of Angeley's faith healings and walked out.  A war broke out between Bakker and Swaggar, both of whom ended up exposed.  Oral Roberts went nuts.  Jerry Falwell just struck me as a creepo.  The same goes for Pat Robertson, who was praying away hurricanes before his infamous on-air discussion about knocking off a foreign leader.  Billy Graham is probably the best of the bunch, but the more I read about him, the less I liked.

What I mostly didn't like was the instant salvation ploy, where all sins could be instantly forgiven by simply saying the right magic words.  It's not that I would put it past God to forgive anybody of anything, in the blinking of an eye.  I just didn't think much of any system of worship that invited people in to tell them that they were in danger of Hell fire, because of God's infinitely brutal standards of perfection - only to tell them they could have forgiveness and Heaven at a snap by simply saying the right magic words.

I know the Bible speaks of salvation to those who believe.  It also, however, says that faith without works is dead.  In fact, the Sermon on the Mount - which is Jesus's longest continuous sermon - says practically nothing about faith.  It doesn't tell you what you have to believe.  It doesn't set forth a creed that true believers are to sign onto.  It blesses those who are pure in heart, who mourn with those who mourn, who are meek and gentle, who hunger and thirst after righteousness.  Jesus tells his followers to turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, love their neighbors, love their enemies, curb their lustful thoughts, be faithful in marriage, give to those in need, stop judging one another and to do good for its own sake.

The kicker, for me, was that Jesus said that salvation would not come to those who cried, "Lord, Lord" but to those who did the will of his father.  He further said that anyone who heard his message and followed it was building on a rock; anybody who didn't was building on sand.  

By the time I was in high school, I found myself spending long hours in the library, reading the religion section, looking for books on different religions.  I felt that the faith of my father had been one that simply told him what he wanted to hear.  I felt that it simply kept him from looking further or going any deeper.

During my senior year in high school, I came in contact with the LDS missionaries and invited them into my home so I could hear the discussions.  I had heard somewhere that Mormons believed that Christ had come to America.  Unlike most people who laugh out loud at such a claim, I thought it was an intriguing idea.  To me, it seemed arbitrary that God would have this message - about the messiahship of Jesus - and give it only to one part of the world.  Considering that the other half of the world - in the Americas - would not hear from Christian missionaries until the 1500s, it seemed like an intriguing idea that God would find a way to spread the word through some other means.

I also knew, from studying history, that the Spanish conquistador, Cortes, was surprised to find himself worshipped as a god because the Aztecs had been looking for a white bearded being who had come among their ancestors, preaching peace, and who had promised to return someday.  The Aztec leader, Montezuma, invited Cortes and his men into the city precisely because he believed he was about to turn it over to them.

During the summer before my senior year, I came across a book written by some Seventh-day Adventists, which argued that there had been something known as The Great Apostasy.  Paul had prophesied that, before Christ's return, there would be a great "falling away" from the truth.  Paul didn't elaborate much on that subject, but he clearly believed that this "falling away" was about to happen.  If you go through the New Testament letters of the various apostles, quite a few of them were concerned that the message was get distorted and that there were other folks steering the faith  into a very different direction.  

Of course, for the Adventists, this "falling away" was about the change in the sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday, but the history of Christianity seemed to overflow with issues beyond whether church should be held on Saturday or Sunday.  In the original Christian Church, there were apostles,  the 12 Jesus left to run his church.  Even after the death of Judas, the first thing the Church did was to select someone to replace him.  But within a century, there were no more apostles and the Church was basically in the hands of the bishops.  As I would later come to discover, bishops - who were the religious leaders of whole cities - lost any kind of equality as some cities were a lot bigger than the others.  Rome, for example, was the seat of the Roman empire.  Whoever was bishop of Rome was able to appoint all of the bishops in the suburbs round about that great city.  He ended up being their "archbishop."

In the centuries after Jesus, there ended up being five "archbishops," one for Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Damascus.  In a way, Christianity could be thought of as dividing itself into five communities - one in Judea, one in Egypt, one in Syria, one in Greece and one in Rome.  But in three of these areas (Antioch, Jerusalem and Damascus), the communities were overrun, leaving only two bishops left: the Pope, who became the head of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Patriarch, who became the head of the Greek Orthodox Church.  For centuries, Catholic and Orthodox Christians fought over which group had the goods, whether the true faith was in the east or west.

By the time you get to Martin Luther, the German monk who started the Protestant Reformation by pointing out the differences between 1500 years of tradition and the original teachings and practices of the Bible, Christianity really had changed.  Luther was upset about the seven sacraments and the abuses of the priesthood, including the sale of indulgences (forgiveness for money).  There were lots of other changes, however, including the use of confessionals, the doctrine of transubstantiation (where the bread and wine actually become the literal body and blood of Jesus - while appearing to look like ordinary bread and wine), the use of religious icons and the praying to saints for intercession.  Priests were forbidden to marry.  You couldn't eat meat on Fridays.  Doctrines of Purgatory and Limbo were taught.  There were also creeds, creeds that may have sounded high and lofty but which didn't necessarily make much sense.  I've had people attempt to explain to me how the Trinity actually works.  Other than to compare it to the three states of water, I've not had much help with that.

In the meantime, if you look at the history of Christianity, it's not pretty.  During the Middle Ages, people were taught to support all kinds of things.  There were so many wars fought in the name of religion, including the Crusades.  Heretics were burned at the stake.  Jews were persecuted, put into ghettos and deported.  There were witch hunts.  There was the Spanish Inquisition.  Even when Europeans explored the Americas, the Native Americans were enslaved, relieved of their gold and forced into conversions.  "Christian" Europe didn't look like a continuation of New Testament Christianity.  Instead, it looked like something had gone horribly wrong.

The Protestant Reformation was supposed to fix all this.  Once people got the Bible, and were able to read it in their own language, they were supposed to be able to resolve all these issues and reform the Christian Church.  Instead, Christianity fractured into so many rival sects, with their own rival doctrines and claims.  Catholics said that the priesthood line flowed from the Pope to their priests.  The Orthodox Church said it came through their Patriarch.  The Church of England said it flowed from the bishops (with its head being the Archbishop of Canterbury).  Scottish Presbyterians said it flowed from the local elders (enabling them to rebuff the authority of the Church of England).  America was settled, in part, by Puritan Congregationalists (who said that the authority rested with the congregation) and Baptists (who said each church was on its own) and Quakers (who said a person's conscience had the "inner light," which was on par with any external authority).

As I would discover when I discussed sermons with my father, there was no authority - not after the Protestant Reformation.  While Protestants said the Bible was their only authority, different groups read it their own way.  When I'd quote the preacher to my father, he would say, "That's only his opinion."  I ended up wondering if anybody had anything to share that wasn't just their opinion.

So, imagine my surprise when I read about Joseph Smith who, at the age of 14, discovered that his world - a world of feuding sects - came down to a war of opinions.  Each group would use the same Bible to justify completely different conclusions.  He didn't know whom to believe so he went to the Bible and found a passage in James telling him to ask God.  Joseph Smith's testimony was that his life took a decidedly different turn when he went to God in prayer and began having glorious visions.

The visions are what set Mormonism off from all of the other Christian churches.  Many of the ideas Joseph Smith entertained are now standard in many churches, but Joseph Smith didn't claim he'd come up with them on his own.  He claimed he'd received modern revelation.  Most people don't believe in modern revelation.  They see it as too dangerous.  Anybody you might follow might also lead you astray.  For most Christians, it's simply safer to follow the prophets and apostles in the Bible, probably because they're dead.  Joseph Smith's claim that God spoke to him makes him either the most exciting figure in our modern age, or a complete huckster.

Most people assume the latter.  Mormons are unique in embracing the former.

Regardless of how I would feel about my faith later on, after slogging through LDS Church History and wading through those Mormons we spoke about before, my discovery of Joseph Smith opened up a door in my life.  Say what you will about the Mormons, but these folks were trying to save Christianity from itself by embracing the idea of a Restoration of it to its original principles.  Doing so would not involve a claim of superior scholarship (which was the reason each church started its own ivy-league college in America, such schools originally being used as Bible colleges).  Instead, the Mormon claim is that God, himself, restored what was lost - through revelation.

To believe that any person - living or recently dead - has been contacted by the God of the Old and New Testaments is to put your faith into something very delicate.  It takes a great deal of trust to allow yourself to even entertain such a proposition.  I, personally, was willing to do it because I found myself out of options.  Having been raised as a Baptist, I was intimately aware of the faults of the Catholic Church.  Nor was I interested in the Church of England or the claims of the Presbyterians.  I was not interested in the Greek Orthodox, Dutch Reformed or German Lutheran versions of Catholicism.  I was also skeptical of the charismatic tent-revival ecstasies and oddities of the Pentecostal faith.  I wasn't interested in putting my hands in the air and treating church like a rave. I no longer believed in the faith healers or the televangelists.

If God didn't restore the faith, as the Mormons claimed, Christianity was running out of options.

So, I read about the story of Joseph Smith and his First Vision, as well as the story of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.  I read the book and prayed about it, getting what I considered a testimony experience.  There were lots of things I didn't understand at first, including things I found far from my liking.  But building upon that part of the Restored Gospel that struck a nerve with me, I continued to study and pray.  Little by little, I found myself connecting the dots and embracing the faith.  Two years after I joined the Church, I went off on a mission - to Utah, where my testimony got the beating of its life.  There's something about the way that church gets done in Utah - among folks who were raised in it and who assume they've got it down "perfectly" - that left me more than a little bruised.

Utah is a nice place to visit, but serving a mission there is a head trip.  I came back feeling like the Charlie Sheen character in Platoon.

Whenever people ask me what it is Mormons believe, I find myself having to choose between two replies.  One is to go through all of the backstory - regarding Joseph Smith and his First Vision, Moroni and the Book of Mormon, et cetera.  The other is to disregard all that and to talk about what it is Mormons really believe on a daily basis.  As much as the first choice might turn people off - from the outset - the second choice ends up producing what happened with you.  You took a test and discovered, much to your surprise, that you have so much more in common with what Mormons believe than you ever thought possible.

It's with an eye toward that second option that I will share with you the stuff that Mormons really believe - not the trivia people disagree with all the time but the critical core stuff that makes Mormons tick, at least as often as not.

1. You are a child of God.  You are not an accident.  Your life has purpose.  Each of us, from the greatest to the least, is part of the human family, and as such, we enjoy a dignity and potential far greater than most of us ever realize.

2. You were meant to be happy.  This life might be thought of as a "test."  Equally, it's a place to "learn."  Our experiences, while sometimes difficult and even painful, are meant to help us grow and develop.  As one Book of Mormon prophet described it, "Men are that they might have joy."  The purpose of this life is to find happiness.

3. Choices are vital to happiness.  It does matter what you say and do.  Scientists talk about cause and effect.  Mormons speak of agency - the freedom to choose - and the consequences of those choices.  Everyone is tilling a garden of sorts, and with each choice, you are either watering that garden or plowing it under.  The purpose of the Gospel is to provide guidance, to help you make the best choices.

4. Part of making choices is exercising repentance.  Every person who is guided by the light also has a conscience.  If they're true to their feelings, everybody comes to recognize those moments when they just "feel" that what they've done is wrong.  They can be taught right from wrong but sometimes it takes a choice to "feel" - straight to the bone - that they've done something good or made a serious mistake.  Fortunately, each person can repent, which is a process allowing that person to recognize the mistake, fix it and move on.

5. Happiness also involves self-respect.  It matters how people treat their bodies.  They can eat healthy foods or put into themselves substances that weaken or destroy their health.  It also matters, to a certain extent, what they do to their bodies - from the outside.  They can clothe themselves in such a way as to protect their dignity or they can degrade themselves.

6. One aspect of happiness is family life.  Families aren't just optional; they're vital.  Some choices build and strengthen families; others weaken and destroy them.  Some choices knit family members together while others leave them isolated and on their own.  It matters whether a person acts to immediately gratify a desire or whether he or she gives thought to the bigger picture.  The same physical attraction can be used to prompt a series of meaningless encounters or to bring the right two people together.  Intimacy can lead to unwanted pregnancies, abortions and STDs or it be used to create a bond between parents and start a family.  Ambition can be used to feed a family or divide parents from their children.  Family life can involve shared responsibilities and shared experiences, or it can give way to indolence and isolation.  There can be "love at home" or there can be abuse and neglect.

7. Work and career also play a role.  People can be lazy and dishonest.  They can also be industrious and play by the rules.  They can limit themselves - in terms of their education, training or ambition - or they can keep growing, taking fair advantages of each opportunity.  Happiness is best found in finding work they love to do as well as in loving work they have to do.  On the other hand, ambition - like everything else - must find a healthy balance.  As Jesus said, "What doth it profit a man if he gain the whole world but loses his own soul?"  If there is a time to work, there is also a time to play and a time to rest.  If money matters, so do other things in life.  Who would trade away their health, their happiness or their family just to make a few more dollars?  And what value is there to making money if one is not careful about how one spends it?

8. Finally, happiness involves giving back to the community.  Just as individuals need families, families need other structures - like churches, neighborhoods and government.  Communities need support, which can only come from individual and family contributions - whether it's in the form of dollars, service or cooperation.  Every choice is an opportunity to build and sustain communities or weaken and destroy them.  As always, happiness is about choosing wisely.

Whether or not a person accepts the unique Mormon beliefs that explain the origins of the Restored Gospel, a lot of people are surprised to discover how much they have in common with Mormon beliefs and the Mormon way of life.  Whether one accepts the idea of a pre-mortal existence, there's something to be said about the idea that life is not an accident.  Whether one accepts that Joseph Smith was a prophet, there's something to be said about the idea that inspiration is available to any person who seeks it.  Mormons believe that human beings are made in God's image, that the body is a beautiful thing, that service is noble, that learning is endless, that families are forever and that love is better than loneliness.  Everybody has a place.  Everbody has a talent.  Everybody has a job.

“And if the book of Mormon was true then with millions of people living in cities would have left something for archeologist to find later.”

*

Actually there is a large amount of archeologist data available but that really proves only what one wishes to have it prove. Nor will assist or cancel any other agenda that one may wish to push here or elsewhere.

Arriving at a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon is not supposed to be easy. Part of our purpose here on this Earth is a test. That test is not even close to being a true / false test as we may have had in grade school but is a real life essay test. Humble prayer is the instructor of choice in this course. The Two Great Commandments remain in effect also, to be graded at our last day for all, Mormon or not. SO one question could be: Have I Done Any Good in the World Today? Have I Helped Anyone in Need? Or do we simply go through life finding fault with others good work?

Jesse F.

*             

"I'm slowly figuring out what's good for me, but only by the process of elimination."

- Frank and Ernest