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Switch to Forum Live View Possible discrepancy in Mohammed's last sermon?
3 years ago  ::  Oct 17, 2011 - 4:50PM #1
Community.beliefnet.comstone
Posts: 180
I'm puzzled.  I've now seen two different versions of a key passage in Mohammed's farewell sermon.  One version reads --

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a  non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white  has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a  white – except by piety and good action." --

-- and the other reads --

"all of you are from Adam, and Adam was from the ground. The noblest of  you in Allah’s sight is the most godfearing: Arab has no merit over  non-Arab other than godfearingness." --

Please, can anyone tell me how come the discrepancy, and might anyone  know what are the two different sources behind the two versions?

Many thanks,

Walther
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3 years ago  ::  Oct 18, 2011 - 4:52AM #2
visio
Posts: 3,229

Oct 17, 2011 -- 4:50PM, Community.beliefnet.comstone wrote:

I'm puzzled.  I've now seen two different versions of a key passage in Mohammed's farewell sermon.  One version reads --

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a  non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white  has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a  white – except by piety and good action." --

-- and the other reads --

"all of you are from Adam, and Adam was from the ground. The noblest of  you in Allah’s sight is the most godfearing: Arab has no merit over  non-Arab other than godfearingness." --

Please, can anyone tell me how come the discrepancy, and might anyone  know what are the two different sources behind the two versions?

Many thanks,

Walther




I suspect that the whole crowd were highly downed emotionally and there were no one to scribe down what were actually said.  Hence the two different versions quoted.   One version could be from someone who were aware of what were actually narrated in the revelation about Adam & Eve.   The other version was not.   Perhaps there were two groups of people with a different personal thoughts and perception on their understanding of Al-Quranic narratives on creation at the time.   And they interpreted them into that part of the Last Sermon.  I think the occassion was never intended to be a discourse, by the prophet, on creation.  It was just a farewell speech. We have to just get the surface level of the intent and purpose of the message.  


Personally, my thoughtful opinion would pick the latter narratives.   They are consistent (technically) with how the realted verses are phrased in the narratives of the Al-Quran.   The former could be from someone who wanted to beat the guns, which was never the character of the Prophet.  And most likely those early Hebrew speaking converts exposed to Torah of Moses and Injeel (Gospel) of Jesus,


As to the actual sources, I have no idea.   Someone else, an Islamic scholar, perhaps or those who works on the wiki 24/7.    


 

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2011 - 10:17AM #3
Community.beliefnet.comstone
Posts: 180

Oct 18, 2011 -- 4:52AM, visio wrote:


Oct 17, 2011 -- 4:50PM, Community.beliefnet.comstone wrote:

I'm puzzled.  I've now seen two different versions of a key passage in Mohammed's farewell sermon.  One version reads --

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a  non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white  has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a  white – except by piety and good action." --

-- and the other reads --

"all of you are from Adam, and Adam was from the ground. The noblest of  you in Allah’s sight is the most godfearing: Arab has no merit over  non-Arab other than godfearingness." --

Please, can anyone tell me how come the discrepancy, and might anyone  know what are the two different sources behind the two versions?

Many thanks,


Walther




I suspect that the whole crowd were highly downed emotionally and there were no one to scribe down what were actually said.  Hence the two different versions quoted.   One version could be from someone who were aware of what were actually narrated in the revelation about Adam & Eve.   The other version was not.   Perhaps there were two groups of people with a different personal thoughts and perception on their understanding of Al-Quranic narratives on creation at the time.   And they interpreted them into that part of the Last Sermon.  I think the occassion was never intended to be a discourse, by the prophet, on creation.  It was just a farewell speech. We have to just get the surface level of the intent and purpose of the message.  


Personally, my thoughtful opinion would pick the latter narratives.   They are consistent (technically) with how the realted verses are phrased in the narratives of the Al-Quran.   The former could be from someone who wanted to beat the guns, which was never the character of the Prophet.  And most likely those early Hebrew speaking converts exposed to Torah of Moses and Injeel (Gospel) of Jesus,


As to the actual sources, I have no idea.   Someone else, an Islamic scholar, perhaps or those who works on the wiki 24/7.    


 




 


Appreciate the thoughts.  Thank you.  What would be useful is knowing if there's any scholarly consensus right  now on the derivation of the specific versions (i.e., along the lines  of -- say -- Mohammed's secretary is known to have assembled the version  where M. says such-and-such during the decade of the _____s, while the  other version apparently comes from slightly later, but it appears to be  from M.s own family when _______ was working with the family to collect  all the _____s known to have survived after the battle of _________,  etc., etc.).

Any kind of info like that would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,


Walther

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2011 - 8:29AM #4
visio
Posts: 3,229

Oct 21, 2011 -- 10:17AM, Community.beliefnet.comstone wrote:


Oct 18, 2011 -- 4:52AM, visio wrote:


Oct 17, 2011 -- 4:50PM, Community.beliefnet.comstone wrote:

I'm puzzled.  I've now seen two different versions of a key passage in Mohammed's farewell sermon.  One version reads --

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a  non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white  has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a  white – except by piety and good action." --

-- and the other reads --

"all of you are from Adam, and Adam was from the ground. The noblest of  you in Allah’s sight is the most godfearing: Arab has no merit over  non-Arab other than godfearingness." --

Please, can anyone tell me how come the discrepancy, and might anyone  know what are the two different sources behind the two versions?

Many thanks,


Walther




I suspect that the whole crowd were highly downed emotionally and there were no one to scribe down what were actually said.  Hence the two different versions quoted.   One version could be from someone who were aware of what were actually narrated in the revelation about Adam & Eve.   The other version was not.   Perhaps there were two groups of people with a different personal thoughts and perception on their understanding of Al-Quranic narratives on creation at the time.   And they interpreted them into that part of the Last Sermon.  I think the occassion was never intended to be a discourse, by the prophet, on creation.  It was just a farewell speech. We have to just get the surface level of the intent and purpose of the message.  


Personally, my thoughtful opinion would pick the latter narratives.   They are consistent (technically) with how the realted verses are phrased in the narratives of the Al-Quran.   The former could be from someone who wanted to beat the guns, which was never the character of the Prophet.  And most likely those early Hebrew speaking converts exposed to Torah of Moses and Injeel (Gospel) of Jesus,


As to the actual sources, I have no idea.   Someone else, an Islamic scholar, perhaps or those who works on the wiki 24/7.    


 




 


Appreciate the thoughts.  Thank you.  What would be useful is knowing if there's any scholarly consensus right  now on the derivation of the specific versions (i.e., along the lines  of -- say -- Mohammed's secretary is known to have assembled the version  where M. says such-and-such during the decade of the _____s, while the  other version apparently comes from slightly later, but it appears to be  from M.s own family when _______ was working with the family to collect  all the _____s known to have survived after the battle of _________,  etc., etc.).

Any kind of info like that would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,


Walther




And if you don't mind, where did you get this:


"all of you are from Adam, and Adam was from the ground. The noblest of   you in Allah’s sight is the most godfearing: Arab has no merit over   non-Arab other than godfearingness." --?


Could you please name the reference?


 

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 22, 2011 - 10:09PM #5
Community.beliefnet.comstone
Posts: 180

Oct 22, 2011 -- 8:29AM, visio wrote:


Oct 21, 2011 -- 10:17AM, Community.beliefnet.comstone wrote:


Oct 18, 2011 -- 4:52AM, visio wrote:


Oct 17, 2011 -- 4:50PM, Community.beliefnet.comstone wrote:

I'm puzzled.  I've now seen two different versions of a key passage in Mohammed's farewell sermon.  One version reads --

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a  non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white  has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a  white – except by piety and good action." --

-- and the other reads --

"all of you are from Adam, and Adam was from the ground. The noblest of  you in Allah’s sight is the most godfearing: Arab has no merit over  non-Arab other than godfearingness." --

Please, can anyone tell me how come the discrepancy, and might anyone  know what are the two different sources behind the two versions?

Many thanks,


Walther




I suspect that the whole crowd were highly downed emotionally and there were no one to scribe down what were actually said.  Hence the two different versions quoted.   One version could be from someone who were aware of what were actually narrated in the revelation about Adam & Eve.   The other version was not.   Perhaps there were two groups of people with a different personal thoughts and perception on their understanding of Al-Quranic narratives on creation at the time.   And they interpreted them into that part of the Last Sermon.  I think the occassion was never intended to be a discourse, by the prophet, on creation.  It was just a farewell speech. We have to just get the surface level of the intent and purpose of the message.  


Personally, my thoughtful opinion would pick the latter narratives.   They are consistent (technically) with how the realted verses are phrased in the narratives of the Al-Quran.   The former could be from someone who wanted to beat the guns, which was never the character of the Prophet.  And most likely those early Hebrew speaking converts exposed to Torah of Moses and Injeel (Gospel) of Jesus,


As to the actual sources, I have no idea.   Someone else, an Islamic scholar, perhaps or those who works on the wiki 24/7.    


 




 


Appreciate the thoughts.  Thank you.  What would be useful is knowing if there's any scholarly consensus right  now on the derivation of the specific versions (i.e., along the lines  of -- say -- Mohammed's secretary is known to have assembled the version  where M. says such-and-such during the decade of the _____s, while the  other version apparently comes from slightly later, but it appears to be  from M.s own family when _______ was working with the family to collect  all the _____s known to have survived after the battle of _________,  etc., etc.).

Any kind of info like that would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,


Walther




And if you don't mind, where did you get this:


"all of you are from Adam, and Adam was from the ground. The noblest of   you in Allah’s sight is the most godfearing: Arab has no merit over   non-Arab other than godfearingness." --?


Could you please name the reference?


 




Sure: I found both versions at this page --


talkislam.wordpress.com/2006/07/05/the-f...


 


At the top is one readout of the whole sermon, where we have --


 


-- all of you are from Adam, and Adam was from the ground. The noblest of  you in Allah’s sight is the most godfearing: Arab has no merit over  non-Arab other than godfearingness. --


 


and lower down on the page, about a quarter of the way down on the page, way after the text of the sermon at the top of the page, we have a paragraph from a respondent, and the paragraph is headed "Morality".  In that paragraph is the variant quote --


 


-- All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a  non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white  has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a  white – except by piety and good action. --


 


No derivation is given for either version.  You'll note that, at the bottom of the page, I've lodged the same query as here, with no luck gaining a response.


Cheers,


Walther

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3 years ago  ::  Oct 23, 2011 - 12:36PM #6
visio
Posts: 3,229

Oct 22, 2011 -- 10:09PM, Community.beliefnet.comstone wrote:


 


Sure: I found both versions at this page --


talkislam.wordpress.com/2006/07/05/the-f...


 


At the top is one readout of the whole sermon, where we have --


 


-- all of you are from Adam, and Adam was from the ground. The noblest of  you in Allah’s sight is the most godfearing: Arab has no merit over  non-Arab other than godfearingness. --


 


and lower down on the page, about a quarter of the way down on the page, way after the text of the sermon at the top of the page, we have a paragraph from a respondent, and the paragraph is headed "Morality".  In that paragraph is the variant quote --


 


-- All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a  non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white  has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a  white – except by piety and good action. --


 


No derivation is given for either version.  You'll note that, at the bottom of the page, I've lodged the same query as here, with no luck gaining a response.


Cheers,


Walther




Thank you very much for the link.   After reading the rest of the part which I said could be the most likely passage, something in there tells me the version sounds as "Christianic" and/or "Jewish".   Perhaps the Syakh Ha Mim Keller is the right person you may want to ask for the original source of the Arabic texts he used in the translations.   And I find it strange that there is one important line (message) I found missing in this version, which is consistent with the version that had been accepted by many.    This is the part that reads:


All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly.."


 


This is the line that really motivated the companions of the Prophet to:


1.   Compile all the verses of the Al-Quran.


2.   Compile the words of Muhammadsaw in detailing his sunnah, which is now known as the hadiths.


And this part of the sermon is consistent with many verses in the Al-Quran that qualifiy itself that many who was directly listening in his days would not understand, would have to think about, would have to contemplate, would have to ask those whay might know etc. etc. and his hope and wishes and prayer that th elater generations of Muslims would understand both the Al-Quran and Hadiths better.  Thus paved the way for free discussion among Muslims.    Insha'Allah.

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