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2 years ago  ::  May 25, 2011 - 9:32PM #1
Seefan
Posts: 2,739

"According to the Bahá'í conception, the soul of man, or in other words his inner spiritual self or reality, is not dualistic."  (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 208)


I can see that the soul of man can’t be dualistic and maintain its unity.  But where there is such a difference between the reality of God and man, is this relationship dualistic or not ... 

In the Divine Reality can the oneness of God and His creation be dualistic  ...


 


Addition:


Is there any writings that explains the process of returning to God and what happens to the human soul?  Does it unite with God?  Is it as some indicate that the wave (soul) becomes part of the sea (God) once again?


 

The sciences of this world are droplets of reality; if then they lead not to reality, what fruit can come of illusion? By the one true God! If learning be not a means of access to Him, the Most Manifest, it is nothing but evident loss. (Baha'i Faith) As to life's problems Einstein said it well - we can't solve a problem using the same consciousness that created it ...
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2 years ago  ::  May 26, 2011 - 12:23PM #2
world citizen
Posts: 4,354

Hello again, Seefan ~


Man can be near TO or distanced FROM God, both on earth and in the eternal realm, but can never be one WITH God.  Any form of "dualism" as we might think of the concept is reserved for the Manifestations of God while on earth.  In Scripture, They attain to a figurative "throne" in heaven at the SIDE of God.


... as people in this world are in need of God, they will also need Him in the other world.  The creatures are always in need, and God is absolutely independent, whether in this world or in the world to come.  The wealth of the other world is nearness to God.  ('Abdu'l-Baha, "Some Answered Questions," p. 231)

Ye have been forbidden in the Book of God to engage in contention and conflict...
~Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas
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2 years ago  ::  May 26, 2011 - 1:39PM #3
Aka_me
Posts: 9,302

May 25, 2011 -- 9:32PM, Seefan wrote:

Addition:


Is there any writings that explains the process of returning to God and what happens to the human soul?



hello


the writings explain that humans do not have the basis with which to comprehend this. comparing it to attempting to explain a sunset to a baby in the womb.


May 25, 2011 -- 9:32PM, Seefan wrote:

Does it unite with God?  Is it as some indicate that the wave (soul) becomes part of the sea (God) once again?



a very complicated topic. one place in the writings say God is closer to us than our life vein. in my mind, that tends to make me visualize that we are the wave, because nothing can physically get closer to us than our life vein.


but at the same time, the "Realms of God" have been described in a 10 page document whose translated title is "The Tablet of All Food".


in it there are 5 different realms identified and briefly described. and God, at the outter most realm, takes in everything, while nothing takes in, or approaches God. this diagram is my own personal study from the Tablet, not to be considered official in any way.


there's enough money for free college and health care, it's not a matter of HAVING the money, it's a matter of priorities. and this country feels death and murder of foreigners through war is more important than the health and well being of its own citizens.
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2 years ago  ::  May 26, 2011 - 9:24PM #4
Seefan
Posts: 2,739

Thank you Aka_me and WC for your post.  You've confirmed my thoughts but for some reason I was unable to articulate my understanding on another site ...


Aka_me I like your illustration.  It tells me that God encircles/empowers creation but is not a part of it.  There is unity and oneness of purpose but not singleness of form ...


 

The sciences of this world are droplets of reality; if then they lead not to reality, what fruit can come of illusion? By the one true God! If learning be not a means of access to Him, the Most Manifest, it is nothing but evident loss. (Baha'i Faith) As to life's problems Einstein said it well - we can't solve a problem using the same consciousness that created it ...
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2011 - 2:12AM #5
Kalzera
Posts: 258

"Is there any writings that explains the process of returning to God and what happens to the human soul?  Does it unite with God?  Is it as some indicate that the wave (soul) becomes part of the sea (God) once again?"


I sadly can't give a reference to a specific text, but I can try to lead you in a decent direction.


There were two popular, but different ideas of "Union with God" that Sufi's generally believe in. One was getting infinitly close to God through eternity, but never actually merging. The other was a final, direct absorption into God, losing all of oneself and simply becoming God. If you look at Sufi materials from various orders, you'll probably be able to find this and better tell the different.


Bahá'u'lláh came from a Sufi/Gnostic Shi'i climate. In fact, He took two years to retreat to the mountains and delved into a bit of Sufism. However, His Writings echo a lot of problems he saw among Sufis, and doesn't agree with all of their theology. But I think this is one bit where he might've agreed with them. So if you're curious about what He thought about this issue, but can't find it explicity in Bahá'í texts, I'd check a few Sufi ones. As the rest of the board illustrates, I think Bahá'u'lláh alluds to the idea of becoming infinitly closer throughout eternity, but never directly merging. 


Regarding how this is or isn't dualistic, I can't answer. That's a bit over my head...Sealed

However men try to reach me, I return their love with my love; whatever path they may travel, it leads to me in the end - Bhagavad Gita 4:11

"Knowledge is a light which God casteth into the heart of whomsoever He willeth" - The Four Valleys; Hadith
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2011 - 7:41AM #6
Seefan
Posts: 2,739

Jun 12, 2011 -- 2:12AM, Kalzera wrote:


"Is there any writings that explains the process of returning to God and what happens to the human soul?  Does it unite with God?  Is it as some indicate that the wave (soul) becomes part of the sea (God) once again?"


I sadly can't give a reference to a specific text, but I can try to lead you in a decent direction.


There were two popular, but different ideas of "Union with God" that Sufi's generally believe in. One was getting infinitly close to God through eternity, but never actually merging. The other was a final, direct absorption into God, losing all of oneself and simply becoming God. If you look at Sufi materials from various orders, you'll probably be able to find this and better tell the different.


Bahá'u'lláh came from a Sufi/Gnostic Shi'i climate. In fact, He took two years to retreat to the mountains and delved into a bit of Sufism. However, His Writings echo a lot of problems he saw among Sufis, and doesn't agree with all of their theology. But I think this is one bit where he might've agreed with them. So if you're curious about what He thought about this issue, but can't find it explicity in Bahá'í texts, I'd check a few Sufi ones. As the rest of the board illustrates, I think Bahá'u'lláh alluds to the idea of becoming infinitly closer throughout eternity, but never directly merging. 


Regarding how this is or isn't dualistic, I can't answer. That's a bit over my head...





Thanks Kalzera!  This is basically my thoughts as well from what I've read.  Thanks for the suggestion to research Sufi ideology and compare it with what Baha'u'llah said.  And thank for the response ...


 As to duality, I think you've answered it to my minimal understanding, that basically God and creation (humanity) will never truly become one and the same.  Now I know there must be much more to this concept.  Philosophy would never leave it that simple ...   Undecided


 

The sciences of this world are droplets of reality; if then they lead not to reality, what fruit can come of illusion? By the one true God! If learning be not a means of access to Him, the Most Manifest, it is nothing but evident loss. (Baha'i Faith) As to life's problems Einstein said it well - we can't solve a problem using the same consciousness that created it ...
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2011 - 12:36PM #7
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,440

May 25, 2011 -- 9:32PM, Seefan wrote:

"According to the Bahá'í conception, the soul of man, or in other words his inner spiritual self or reality, is not dualistic."  (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 208)


I can see that the soul of man can’t be dualistic and maintain its unity.  But where there is such a difference between the reality of God and man, is this relationship dualistic or not ... 

In the Divine Reality can the oneness of God and His creation be dualistic  ...


Is there any writings that explains the process of returning to God and what happens to the human soul?  Does it unite with God?



I think Bahaikipedia explains the beautifully profound Bahá'í concept of God rather well (starting from the second heading "God"):


bahaikipedia.org/God


In short, even the very idea of "union" or "separation" with/from God is but a man-made concept, a created thing, and cannot even attempt to describe God's inmost reality:


"No tie of direct intercourse can possibly bind Him to His creatures. He standeth exalted beyond and above all separation and union, all proximity and remoteness." (Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Iqán, p. 98)


The Bahá'í concept of God is by far the most profound and the most logical ever articulated, leaving even the brightest Sufi mystics baffled. Just as Bahá'u'lláh actually did with His "Seven Valleys".


Best regards from Finland,


LilWabbit


 

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2011 - 12:51PM #8
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,440

Since man can never know God (who is described as the Unknowable Essence), Bahá'u'lláh describes a person's honest recognition of his powerlessness to know God to be the highest life goal, the greatest praise and acknowledgement of God's 'greatness' if you will.


"Glorified, immeasurably glorified art Thou, my Best-Beloved! Inasmuch as Thou hast ordained that the utmost limit to which they who lift their hearts to Thee can rise is the confession of their powerlessness to enter the realms of Thy holy and transcendent unity, and that the highest station which they who aspire to know Thee can reach is the acknowledgment of their impotence to attain the retreats of Thy sublime knowledge..." (Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations, p. 87)


In His meditation no. LXXVI (p. 125 in my Prayers and Meditations), Bahá'u'lláh beautifully describes how to accept any word of praise from man, any 'attribute of God' as we know them, is but an act of grace and mercy on God's part. That's simply the best we can do and God in his forbearance accepts it and condones it. I recommend reading the whole prayer. It's beautiful and powerful, and somehow puts together the Bahá'í concept of God much better than any of my awkward ramblings.


LilWabbit


 

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2011 - 1:36PM #9
Seefan
Posts: 2,739

 


Thank you, you LilWabbit for the information and especially the link ........


 

The sciences of this world are droplets of reality; if then they lead not to reality, what fruit can come of illusion? By the one true God! If learning be not a means of access to Him, the Most Manifest, it is nothing but evident loss. (Baha'i Faith) As to life's problems Einstein said it well - we can't solve a problem using the same consciousness that created it ...
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2011 - 6:37PM #10
world citizen
Posts: 4,354

Welcome to the Baha'i Faith forum, Lilwabbit.  Hope to hear more from you!  Smile

Ye have been forbidden in the Book of God to engage in contention and conflict...
~Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas
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