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4 years ago  ::  May 18, 2011 - 6:59PM #1
DonCarson
Posts: 1
Hello, I would like  to hear a good explanation from a JW about some verses.

Is. 41:4, 44:6,  48:12 and Rev. 22:13 have Jehovah declaring himself "the first and  last".
Should this divine title be designated to Jehovah alone?

In  Is. 44:6, Jehovah says, “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is  no god." I would think this says there can only be one "first and last", or  "alpha and omega", namely, God. Would you agree?

If you agree, what do  you do with this same expression designated to Jesus in Rev. 1:17,  2:8?

Perhaps you will say that he is the "first" in the same sense that  you interpret "firstborn" in Col 1:15. If so, to be fair, you would need to  interpret Is. 41:4, 44:6, 48:12 and Rev. 22:13 differently, no?

I  sincerely am interested in hearing a response,
Don

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4 years ago  ::  May 20, 2011 - 1:17PM #2
Phronesis
Posts: 2,234

Hello, Don.


 


 Both Jehovah and Jesus are “the first and the last” but in two different ways. I myself am the first and the last of my parent’s children. This does not make me the same as either Jehovah or Jesus.


 


Jehovah alone is the one and only Almighty True God. (Exodus 6:3; John 17:3) Therefore he is the first Almighty God and the last Almighty God.


 “And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: 'Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last.'(Revelation 1:17)


When Jesus presents himself by the title “the First and the Last,” he is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God.


And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again.(Revelation 2:8)


By stating this to those Christians in Smyrna, Jesus reminds them that he was the first integrity keeper that Jehovah directly resurrected to immortal spirit life and the last to be so raised. Jesus himself would resurrect all other anointed Christians.


He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.(Colossians 1:15) Jesus is the first and the last direct one of Jehovah’s creations, so although this can have some application to the subject at hand, even more so is Colossians 1:18: “He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things.


So again, it is in two different senses that Jesus and Jehovah are each "the first and the last."

"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen ... ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, that I am God." - Isaiah 43:10, 12, ASV.
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4 years ago  ::  May 20, 2011 - 1:55PM #3
acomtha
Posts: 98

May 20, 2011 -- 1:17PM, Phronesis wrote:

Hello, Don.


 


 Both Jehovah and Jesus are “the first and the last” but in two different ways. I myself am the first and the last of my parent’s children. This does not make me the same as either Jehovah or Jesus.


 


Jehovah alone is the one and only Almighty True God. (Exodus 6:3; John 17:3) Therefore he is the first Almighty God and the last Almighty God.


 “And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: 'Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last.'(Revelation 1:17)


When Jesus presents himself by the title “the First and the Last,” he is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God.


And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again.(Revelation 2:8)


By stating this to those Christians in Smyrna, Jesus reminds them that he was the first integrity keeper that Jehovah directly resurrected to immortal spirit life and the last to be so raised. Jesus himself would resurrect all other anointed Christians.


He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.(Colossians 1:15) Jesus is the first and the last direct one of Jehovah’s creations, so although this can have some application to the subject at hand, even more so is Colossians 1:18: “He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things.


So again, it is in two different senses that Jesus and Jehovah are each "the first and the last."


Hi,


Wasn't Adam also the first direct creation of Jehovah?  Unless you mean that he (Jesus) is the first direct creation of God that was given eternal life? Please expain, as I've heard this before and have wondered about it.  Thanks..


Acomtha


 

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4 years ago  ::  May 20, 2011 - 2:52PM #4
Phronesis
Posts: 2,234

Colossians 1:15-17 indicates that everything that was created (with the exception of Jesus) was created through Jesus. So Adam would have been created by Jehovah through Jesus.

"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen ... ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, that I am God." - Isaiah 43:10, 12, ASV.
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3 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2011 - 12:35AM #5
older
Posts: 9,166

Jesus was the 1st  who had not sinned , to die, and the 1st to be resurrected  to everlasing lfe. Jehovah has always existed. He will never die, but Jesus did.  Two kinds of 1st and last.

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3 years ago  ::  Aug 26, 2011 - 6:28PM #6
Newtonian
Posts: 12,196

May 18, 2011 -- 6:59PM, DonCarson wrote:

Hello, I would like  to hear a good explanation from a JW about some verses.

Is. 41:4, 44:6,  48:12 and Rev. 22:13 have Jehovah declaring himself "the first and  last".
Should this divine title be designated to Jehovah alone?

In  Is. 44:6, Jehovah says, “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is  no god." I would think this says there can only be one "first and last", or  "alpha and omega", namely, God. Would you agree?

If you agree, what do  you do with this same expression designated to Jesus in Rev. 1:17,  2:8?

Perhaps you will say that he is the "first" in the same sense that  you interpret "firstborn" in Col 1:15. If so, to be fair, you would need to  interpret Is. 41:4, 44:6, 48:12 and Rev. 22:13 differently, no?

I  sincerely am interested in hearing a response,
Don



Hi Don! - First and last of what would be crucial - i.e. context.


(Revelation 1:17-18) . . .And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha′des.


(Revelation 2:8) . . .: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again],


Obviously Jehovah God has never become dead so as to then come to life again and have immortality.


That Jesus is first to be resurrected to immortality is easier to prove - please read all of chapter 15:


(1 Corinthians 15:20-23) 20 However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. 21 For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.


So Jesus is the firstfruits in the resurrection - certainly God has never needed to be resurrected!


Now last is more complex.  Obviously Jesus is not last to be resurrected - however Jesus is the only one (hence: last) resurrected directly by God.   All others are resurrected through Jesus Christ.


From our literature:


1:8, 17—To whom do the titles “the Alpha and the Omega” and “the First and the Last” refer? The title “the Alpha and the Omega” applies to Jehovah, stressing that there was no almighty God before him and that there will be none after him. He is “the beginning and the end.” (Rev. 21:6; 22:13) Although Jehovah is referred to as “the first and the last” at Revelation 22:13, in that there is none before or after him, the context in the first chapter of Revelation shows that the title “the First and the Last” there applies to Jesus Christ. He was the first human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life and the last one to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally.—Col. 1:18."-"The Watchtower," 1/15/09, pp. 30,31.

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 13, 2011 - 11:02PM #7
acomtha
Posts: 98

Thanks for the reply, but I need an explanation for this?


 It says in Genesis 2:7,8 that ....
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
And this is Adam since it says that he placed him in Eden.


It seems to me that he did directly form Adam?


 


Acomtha

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 15, 2011 - 7:54PM #8
marken
Posts: 3,719

Dec 13, 2011 -- 11:02PM, acomtha wrote:


Thanks for the reply, but I need an explanation for this?


 It says in Genesis 2:7,8 that ....
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
And this is Adam since it says that he placed him in Eden.


It seems to me that he did directly form Adam?


 


Acomtha



a  direct  quote  that  he  did  directly  form  adam.  As  he  directly  formed  Eve, tho  he  used  a  rib  from  Adam  in  this  creation.  He  also  directly  formed  every  first  two  creations,  that  need  a  female and  a  male  to  reproduce.  


I  don't  understand  why  you  are  asking this  question  in  regard to  first  and  last?? do  they  relate?


with  affection  from  Marken

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 15, 2011 - 8:13PM #9
acomtha
Posts: 98

Hi Marken, Sorry that I got off topic, I seem to have a problem with that. Will have to remember to start a new topic when I should. But somewhere in this thread it was mentioned that Jesus was the only one directly created by God, and so wondered since it seemed to me that Adam had been also.


Thanks for the reply on this, you answered  that question for me. And also the differences between what is meant when Jesus is referred to as the "first and the last" and when God is. Thanks for that too, as I've wondered on that one too. God bless...


Acomtha

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3 years ago  ::  Dec 18, 2011 - 8:20PM #10
marken
Posts: 3,719

I  just  want  to  add  here  that  we  believe  that  Jehovah  created  his  Son  as  his  first  creation  and  that  this  Son  helped  in  the  creation  of  everything  else.  still,  all  glory  goes  to  Jehovah.  He often  allows  his  creation  to  help in  the  creation  of  others.  As  in my  case, he  used  me  to  create  three  other  humans.   I  am  grateful  to  him  for  allowing  me  this  privilege.


with  affection  from  Marken

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