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1 year ago  ::  Aug 05, 2013 - 12:28AM #51
Sqroot
Posts: 4,376
57, you said,

This is an interesting of God saying, I have life in Myself...and so does the Son....both of us have always existed.


Jesus had life in him BECAUSE the Father GAVE IT to him. That is what the Scripture says.

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1 year ago  ::  Aug 05, 2013 - 5:00AM #52
57
Posts: 23,432

Aug 5, 2013 -- 12:28AM, Sqroot wrote:

57, you said,

This is an interesting of God saying, I have life in Myself...and so does the Son....both of us have always existed.


Jesus had life in him BECAUSE the Father GAVE IT to him. That is what the Scripture says.



That's what you NEED it to say inorder to support your misplaced faith. 


The verse says Both had life in them self....They both existed eternally. 


But guess what Jesus did?  Being equal with God Jesus covered His glory...and took on the form of a man.   Understand the kenosis.  Understand that Jesus fully God and fully man subjected Himself to the Father.


Jesus accomplished the will of the Father and became sin as He hung on the cross and died.  3 days later we have the resurrrection of Jesus.  The one who has life in and of himself was resurrected by the other who also has life in and of himself. 


 

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1 year ago  ::  Aug 05, 2013 - 5:49AM #53
Sqroot
Posts: 4,376
57, what do the words in Scriptures say at John 5:26? Do they not say,:

"As the Father has life in himself so he has also GRANTED the son to have life in himself"

If Jesus is 'Granted' life how then did he have it eternally?

And also, you said,

But guess what Jesus did?  Being equal with God Jesus covered His glory...and took on the form of a man.   Understand the kenosis.  Understand that Jesus fully God and fully man subjected Himself to the Father.


That is so funny - Jesus is equal to God... That in itself says that he was NOT GOD... Ooops!! stepped on your own tongue there...

And being equal he covered his own glory and became man... That again says that he could not be God because 'God is not a man'. (My my...wrapped your own tongue around itself.)

And, if Jesus was God how can he subject himself to another God (The Father IS GOD) when there is only ONE God. Oh dear, walking over your own tongue... (How long is your tongue??)

And

Jesus accomplished the will of the Father and became sin as He hung on the cross and died.  3 days later we have the resurrrection of Jesus.  The one who has life in and of himself was resurrected by the other who also has life in and of himself.


'The one who has life in himself was resurrected by the other who also has life in himself'... So when you are resurrected, are you not going to be resurrected by the one who has life in himself?? Are you calling yourself 'God'? I think your writing is claiming such even if your intention was not so because your theology is confused and illogical:

It goes something like this: God, who is three persons who are the exact same and cannot be different became different in that one of them diffused himself of the very thing that makes him God and became his own creation and yet remained the same God he was before he diffused himself of the very thing that makes him God.
He then became subordinate to ONLY ONE of the other two Gods but remained superior to one of them and yet was still 100% the same God he was before he became subordinate to the other two and yet did not...
And, he DIED but did not die... He was fully alive while he was dead but nothing in Scriptures attests to this - only deluded persons have proofs of this which they never share with anyone else - not even themselves... weird!!

And lastly, the one with life in him was raised from his DEAD-NON-DEAD state (If he wasn't dead why was he RAISED from the Dead??) and why did one of the other two Gods raise him from the dead if he already had life in him - life that was GRANTED to him by the Father (John 5:26) - why was he GRANTED life if he was God?'

See, a whole load of confused cacophony...

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1 year ago  ::  Aug 06, 2013 - 10:12AM #54
Phronesis
Posts: 2,234

WOW! I just learned something new, 57: If only God can forgive sins, then the disciples of Jesus are God! God is no longer a trinity but a multiplicity!


Sqroot touched on this a little, but Jesus disciple are humans, but the same authority was given to them to forgive sins, just as it was given to Jesus regardless of when he received that authority. When THEY received they were definitely humans.


NOTE:


Jesus, therefore, said to them again: “May you have peace. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending you.” And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. If you forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if you retain those of any persons, they stand retained.” (John 20:21-23, NWT)


Then said Jesus to them again, “Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” (John 20:21-23, KJV)

"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen ... ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, that I am God." - Isaiah 43:10, 12, ASV.
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1 year ago  ::  Aug 06, 2013 - 11:36AM #55
Sqroot
Posts: 4,376

Phronesis, this is not new - 57 has been defeated on this aspect elsewhere in the forum. He has brought it here acting as if it was never mooted before. My guess is that no matter what evidence is  presented to him, and no matter how obsurd his claims are BECOMING, he will continue to repeat the same false retoric.


As you read what he presents you will notice that he evades answering questions that affirm truth from Scriptures as other Trinitarians equally use as a trait of their belief. It is their nature to avoid the truth of Scriptures (often even when they should be AGREEING with what is written to them - that is a weird thing!!)


but the worst is that ogo moving the goalposts, such as 'No one but God can forgive sins against 'God' but God alone - so Jesus must be God'. Note the deception:... No one ever said that man can forgive sins against God!!! We are required to forgive sins committed against OURSELVES... Hence God forgives sins against HIMSELF and a Man forgives sins against HIMSELF.


But ask him now to present a verse showing Jesus forgiving a sin against God? Did Jesus ever say, "I forgive your sins" - or did he say, "Your sins are forgive you" (And the person went away PRAISING GOD...) Jesus was saying "God has forgiven your sins".


And 57 is also struggling over Jesus/God dying On the cross. Apparently, Jesus does not die because the definition of dying in Trinitarian theology is that the person 'Does not cease to EXIST' when they die therefore 'no one is ever dead'...!!! But here is the rub... They only say this about Jesus... It's only his BODY that died - not his Spirit... Does this start sounding odd (It's all 'sense' to a Trinitarian though!)


What then is all the verses saying that 'Jesus died' and what purpose is there in being 'Raise from the dead' (Resurrection) if the person is never DEAD? 57 is strangely silent on these matters!

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1 year ago  ::  Aug 09, 2013 - 7:40PM #56
57
Posts: 23,432

Aug 5, 2013 -- 5:49AM, Sqroot wrote:

57, what do the words in Scriptures say at John 5:26? Do they not say,: "As the Father has life in himself so he has also GRANTED the son to have life in himself" If Jesus is 'Granted' life how then did he have it eternally?



I'm going to cut out the rest of your post.....


You fail to realize that Jesus from eternity past...side by side with God the Father always existed.


Christ gave up His majesty and became man.  The man Jesus died. The man Jesus was given life at the time of His resurrection. 


It's really simple.  Sunday school is over.

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1 year ago  ::  Aug 09, 2013 - 7:45PM #57
57
Posts: 23,432

Aug 6, 2013 -- 10:12AM, Phronesis wrote:


WOW! I just learned something new, 57: If only God can forgive sins, then the disciples of Jesus are God! God is no longer a trinity but a multiplicity!


Sqroot touched on this a little, but Jesus disciple are humans, but the same authority was given to them to forgive sins, just as it was given to Jesus regardless of when he received that authority. When THEY received they were definitely humans.


NOTE:


Jesus, therefore, said to them again: “May you have peace. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending you.” And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. If you forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if you retain those of any persons, they stand retained.” (John 20:21-23, NWT)


Then said Jesus to them again, “Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” (John 20:21-23, KJV)




I have the authority to proclaim someones sins are forgiven.  


Under the authority of scripture I can proclaim your sins are not forgiven because you are following a false Jesus.  You are following a creature.  I, on the other hand am following the true Savior. Jesus form everlasting to everlasting. God.  The one who was equal with God, didn't grasp onto His position giving up His majesty and was found in the form of a man.  Fully man and fully God. 


I don't worship a creature like you do. 

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