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Switch to Forum Live View Baha'i "Faith," not "Interfaith Social Movement"
4 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2011 - 8:44PM #11
Ironhold
Posts: 11,349

Jan 15, 2011 -- 8:09PM, Kalzera wrote:


imo - I'll remember that. I think you've might've said it before, but it's one of those awkward things I don't want to screw up so I just assume capitals given it's a name. 


 


Ironhold - nice to meet you. Although you don't know me, I've skulked around the Mormon boards before, so I think I sort of know you. Creepy, right? Innocent


I think I might also be familiar with the incident you refer to. I think I've read that thread. 


 


In most circumstances I'd agree with you. So far I haven't come across another person where what you suggest hasn't opened their minds. However, I've read on other threads where this is not the case. But, as you say, at least I've tried my best, eh?


(In fact today I was trying to argue that Mormons, even, are a religion -- and worth respecting as such -- and not a 'cult' or a 'business.' )




 


If you really want to blow someone's mind, go to a secular dictionary and find their definition for "cult."


All organized world religions apply. Innocent

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4 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2011 - 11:09PM #12
Kalzera
Posts: 258

That response is ironic in that one of the persons I was conversing with cites that in almost every religion discussion I've had with him. 


Now It's becoming unclear whether or not he used the word "cult" in our discussion...Foot in mouth

However men try to reach me, I return their love with my love; whatever path they may travel, it leads to me in the end - Bhagavad Gita 4:11

"Knowledge is a light which God casteth into the heart of whomsoever He willeth" - The Four Valleys; Hadith
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 18, 2011 - 6:13PM #13
world citizen
Posts: 5,385

Good to see you here, Ironhold!


On the other hand, a more liberal Mormon might periodically indulge in a  Coke or some tea if they feel the situation warrants it or it's  recommended that they do so to resolve a medical condition. For example,  when I had my wisdom teeth out the oral surgeon recommended that I keep  wet tea bags over the sockets; the tannic acid would help cauterize the  sockets closed.


I'll keep this short because I don't want this thread to veer too off topic.  The above made me wonder whether you're aware that, according to our Writings, a doctor's orders can override certain laws in our Aqdas (e.g., no opiates, no alcohol).


... [Shoghi Effendi] clarifies that the use of alcohol is permitted only when it constitutes part of a medical treatment which is implemented "under the advice of a competent and conscientious physician, who may have to prescribe it for the cure of some special ailment".  (Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 227)


In His Most Holy Book (the Aqdas) Bahá'u'lláh says to consult the best physicians; in other words, doctors who have studied a scientific system of medicine: he never gave us to believe He Himself would heal us through 'healers', but rather through prayer and the assistance of medicine and approved treatments.  (~ Shoghi Effendi, Compilation: "Lights of Guidance," p. 277)

Blessed is he who mingleth with all men in a spirit of utmost kindliness and love. ~Baha'u'llah
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3 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2011 - 1:13PM #14
maxmar
Posts: 104

I think we have to be prudent in what we say, how we say it and to whom?    Christ warned his followers about that:  "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."    (King James Bible, Matthew)


Baha'u'llah advises in a similar fashion:


"O SON OF DUST!
The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved. Wherefore sow the seeds of wisdom and knowledge in the pure soil of the heart, and keep them hidden, till the hyacinths of divine wisdom spring from the heart and not from mire and clay...." (Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words #36)


"O My Name! Utterance must needs possess penetrating power. For if bereft of this quality it would fail to exert influence. And this penetrating influence dependeth on the spirit being pure and the heart stainless. Likewise it needeth moderation, without which the hearer would be unable to bear it, rather he would manifest opposition from the very outset. And moderation will be obtained by blending utterance with the tokens of divine wisdom which are recorded in the sacred Books and Tablets. Thus when the essence of one's utterance is endowed with these two requisites it will prove highly effective and will be the prime factor in transforming the souls of men. This is the station of supreme victory and celestial dominion. Whoso attaineth thereto is invested with the power to teach the Cause of God and to prevail over the hearts and minds of men."   (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 198)


"Beware lest ye contend with any one, nay, strive to make him aware of the truth with kindly manner and most convincing exhortation. If your hearer respond, he will have responded to his own behoof, and if not, turn ye away from him, and set your faces towards God's sacred Court, the seat of resplendent holiness.


Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men -- hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue. Thus hath it been ordained by the Fingers of Baha, upon the Tablet of God's irrevocable decree, by the behest of Him Who is the Supreme Ordainer, the All-Knowing."   (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 278)


If that person becomes a "seeker" and comes to recognize and believe that Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God, s/he will he know that the Baha'i Faith is a true faith and not some sort of "social movement."

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2011 - 7:03AM #15
in_my_opinion
Posts: 2,521

"How great the multitude of truths which the garment of words can never contain! How vast the number of such verities as no expression can adequately describe, whose significance can never be unfolded, and to which not even the remotest allusions can be made! How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the appointed time is come! Even as it hath been said: "Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.""


 (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 175)

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2012 - 1:13PM #16
Theonlymred
Posts: 1

Looks like I'm really late to the game on this one, but to me its all about framing one's discussion of the Faith. Growing up a Baha'i in the Bible Belt, I found it intimidating and uncomfortable to discuss my religion at times. As I got a little older, it became much simpler to fall into the trap of describing the progressive social teachings of the Faith while downplaying the fact that, yes, this is a brand new religion and yes, we have our own beliefs and spiritual teachings.


After more study and the natural increase of self confidence that accomidates leaving the teenage years, I'm much more comfortable discussing all aspects of the Baha'i Faith. I've found that, generally, people are very receptive and interested, and rarely hostile.


I agree with above, the Baha'i Faith IS a social movement. We are the first world religion to espouse doctrine that demands the equality of men and women, a fairer distribution of wealth, the elimination of prejudice of all kinds - things that might seem "liberal" and political to some, but are simply canon to Baha'is.


New to the site and I love it!

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2012 - 1:20PM #17
Lilwabbit
Posts: 2,813

Mar 26, 2012 -- 1:13PM, Theonlymred wrote:


Looks like I'm really late to the game on this one, but to me its all about framing one's discussion of the Faith. Growing up a Baha'i in the Bible Belt, I found it intimidating and uncomfortable to discuss my religion at times. As I got a little older, it became much simpler to fall into the trap of describing the progressive social teachings of the Faith while downplaying the fact that, yes, this is a brand new religion and yes, we have our own beliefs and spiritual teachings.


After more study and the natural increase of self confidence that accomidates leaving the teenage years, I'm much more comfortable discussing all aspects of the Baha'i Faith. I've found that, generally, people are very receptive and interested, and rarely hostile.


I agree with above, the Baha'i Faith IS a social movement. We are the first world religion to espouse doctrine that demands the equality of men and women, a fairer distribution of wealth, the elimination of prejudice of all kinds - things that might seem "liberal" and political to some, but are simply canon to Baha'is.


New to the site and I love it!




A warm welcome to Bnet Theonly!


Great to have a solid and eager chap like you join our little Bnet Bahá'í community!


Very wet thawing-snow regards from Finland,


LilWabbit

"All things have I willed for you, and you too, for your own sake."
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2012 - 11:57AM #18
aegregory
Posts: 73

In my view.. People in west ... as in Europe and America are used to the concept that religion should be unworldly and separate from say poltical and social life... that's the origin of the word "secular"..as in "wordly rather than spiritual".. The Baha'i Faith on the other hand is focused on collective and personal salvation..so our principles do sound to some like a mere "liberal" ideology...when if we understand it correctly, the principles of the Faith have a spiritual origin and represent for us the kind of society that God has called for in this age. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2012 - 1:21PM #19
Ironhold
Posts: 11,349

Jun 30, 2012 -- 11:57AM, aegregory wrote:


In my view.. People in west ... as in Europe and America are used to the concept that religion should be unworldly and separate from say poltical and social life... that's the origin of the word "secular"..as in "wordly rather than spiritual".. The Baha'i Faith on the other hand is focused on collective and personal salvation..so our principles do sound to some like a mere "liberal" ideology...when if we understand it correctly, the principles of the Faith have a spiritual origin and represent for us the kind of society that God has called for in this age. 




Actually, "the extent to which one's religion should affect one's politics and social activities" is quite intense in America.


At one extreme, you have people who feel that religion should play no part whatsoever in how things function. This usually takes one of two flavors:


[1] People who feel that religion is obsolete and so should have no bearing on the modern day. These are the "extreme" secularists who are so hyped up by the media. To them, anyone who is overtly religious is either misguided or mentally incompetent. This group reached its zenith during the dispute over Proposition 8, as during the whole incident members of the "No" crowd either launched attacks against the religious groups who were in favor of the law or lauded those who did launch those attacks. Sadly, this includes a poster here on BNet who laughed at video of an elderly woman being assaulted and having her cross damaged; the woman's "crime" consisted of asking members of a "No" protest group to let her cross the street as they were blocking it.


[2] People who are devoutly pious every Sunday but who don't show it the rest of the week. They might claim that religion influences everything that they do, but their actions tell another story entirely. For example, Nash Entertainment (the producers of "World's Dumbest", "Most Shocking", and other video shows) has police footage of a Rev. Ignatius J. Kury; Rev. Kury had just been arrested for DUI #4, and so was having a total meltdown in the drunk tank. I feel sorry for whoever's in his congregation.



At the other extreme, we have people who argue that religion should influence everything in life, such that they disengage their brain and allow their minister to do their speaking for them.


For example, back in 2008 a bizarre dispute arose between GenCon and the Christian Childrens' Fund (now known as ChildFund). GenCon, an annual gaming and comic book convention, had recently begun doing an annual charity auction. Gary Gygax, the co-creator of Dungeons & Dragons, had passed away earlier in the year. His family identified CCF as one of his favorite charities, and so GenCon contacted them about being the recpient of the fundraiser; all they needed was CCF's permission to use their logo in order to advertise the auction.


A lone CCF employee shot them down flat; said person had bought hook, line, and sinker into the old canard about D&D being "Satanic", and so flatly refused to take any money that might arise from the sale of D&D products or related items. CCF HQ didn't even know about the matter until several months after the fact when, a few days after GenCon '08, it was revealed that there had been a hitch with the auction; within a week of the news coming out, CCF HQ got bombarded by e-mails about the matter, their very first clue that anything was amiss.


Due to that one employee's excessive piousness, CCF missed out on the $17,000+ raised that year; instead, it went to another charity (Fisher House, which provides on-base housing so that family members can stay near wounded servicemembers while they receive medical treatment) who was more than happy to partner with GenCon. They also earned the undying enmity of gamers the world over, some of whom (like myself) have written them off entirely.



How's that one grab you?

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2012 - 8:16AM #20
aegregory
Posts: 73

I think you're relating more to the current situation and I was relating more to te past in theWest where you have the historic conflict between science and religion and say the struggle for the secular state.. and that's why in  my view some people think of the Faith as being say more of a secular liberal movement.  The other reason is that the Faith is not so well known because it still in the minority.

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