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3 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2011 - 1:58AM #1
humbleman
Posts: 38

Hi Brothers & sisters i have a question when do we believe the last day is as spoken at john 6 v 54

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 06, 2011 - 3:00AM #2
Sanoski
Posts: 32

Nobody knows when. Not even Jesus knew, according to the Bible, when the final hour was. Jesus appears to be talking about the resurrection at John 6:54. That's what Watchtower theology would say. Though some might disagree. In any case, since no one knows the day of Armageddon, it wouldn't make much sense for anyone to know the day of resurrection either, especially considering how ridiculously massive such a resurrection would be -- it definitely wouldn't be one literal day. Some actual JW's might have more to offer on this subject, but I'm assuming that day has something to do with God's day of rest coming to an end, which has supposedly been ongoing since the 6th day concluded back in Eden. The 7th day has yet to conclude, according to my opinion.


 


In any case, that's my assessment from my youth as a JW. I'm no longer very religious, but I enjoy theological studies and philosophy.    

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2011 - 3:23PM #3
Newtonian
Posts: 11,299

humbleman - good question - Keep 'em coming!   I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, btw.


I usually start with context and cross references and then our index.


So, first some Scriptures:


(John 6:53-54) . . .: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. 54 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day;


Prelimary comment - Life in oneself applies to immortal spirit creations - who need no outside source for life - i.e. this must be referring to the first resurrection - see 1 Corinthians 15.


(John 6:43-45) . . .: “Stop murmuring among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by Jehovah.. . .


 Note this says "in the last day."  The Greek here is "en."  In verse 54 the Greek word is "te."  KiInt renders verse 54 "to the last day."  So, I suspect this is because the first resurrection began first - at the onset of the last day.   While the general resurrection referred to in the quote of Isaiah 54:13 - all the woman's sons - would occur during the last day.   Unless, of course, the woman is Is. 54 is Sarah in the prophetic drama in Galatians 3 & 4 - in which case we are still talking about the seed of Abraham in plural aka the first resurrection.


Now, that is how I start researching.  Often I start off wrong - I just wanted you to see the process.


I will study and get back to you.


Thank you for the question.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2011 - 3:40PM #4
Newtonian
Posts: 11,299

Now, using our index:


*** w90 2/15 pp. 12-13 From Seder to Salvation ***


Lifesaving Blood


12 Back in Egypt the lamb’s blood was pivotal to salvation. When Jehovah slew the firstborn, He passed over houses where there was blood on the doorposts. Moreover, because the Hebrews were not mourning the death of their firstborn, they were in position to march through the Red Sea to freedom.


13 Blood is also involved in salvation today—Jesus’ shed blood. When “the passover, the festival of the Jews, was near” in 32 C.E., Jesus told a large audience: “He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.” (John 6:4, 54, 55) All his Jewish listeners would have in mind the impending Passover and that a lamb’s blood was used in Egypt.


14 Jesus was not then discussing the emblems used in the Lord’s Evening Meal. That new celebration for Christians was not instituted until a year later, so even the apostles who heard Jesus in 32 C.E. knew nothing of it. Still, Jesus was showing that his blood was essential for everlasting salvation. Paul explained: “By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.” (Ephesians 1:7) Only through forgiveness on the basis of Jesus’ blood can we live forever.


Which Salvation and Where?


15 Just a limited salvation was involved in ancient Egypt. No one who left Egypt expected to be given endless life after the Exodus. True, God appointed the Levites to be priests for the nation, and some of the tribe of Judah became temporal kings, but all of these would die. (Acts 2:29; Hebrews 7:11, 23, 27) While the “vast mixed company” who also left Egypt did not have those privileges, they, along with the Hebrews, could hope to reach the Promised Land and enjoy a normal life worshiping God. Still, Jehovah’s pre-Christian servants had a basis for hoping that, in time, they could enjoy endless life on earth, where God purposed mankind to live. This would be in line with Jesus’ promise at John 6:54.


16 God used some of his ancient servants to pen inspiring words about the earth’s having been created to be inhabited and about the upright living forever on it. (Psalm 37:9-11; Proverbs 2:21, 22; Isaiah 45:18) Yet, how could true worshipers gain such salvation if they died? By God’s bringing them back to life on earth. Job, for example, expressed the hope that he would be remembered and called back to life. (Job 14:13-15; Daniel 12:13) Clearly, one form of salvation is to everlasting life on earth.—Matthew 11:11.


17 The Bible also speaks of salvation to life in heaven, where Jesus Christ went after his resurrection. “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.” (1 Peter 3:18, 22; Ephesians 1:20-22; Hebrews 9:24) But Jesus is not to be the only human taken to heaven. God has determined that he will also take from earth a relatively small number of others. Jesus told the apostles: “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. . . . I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.”—John 14:2, 3.


18 Salvation to heavenly life in union with Jesus is certainly far grander than the limited salvation involved with the first Passover. (2 Timothy 2:10) It was on the evening of the last valid Seder, or Passover meal, that Jesus instituted the new celtw.ebration for his followers, which focused on salvation to heavenly life. He told the apostles: “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (Luke 22:19)"


End quote.


So, to those Jesus was speaking to, they had the earthly hope.    They are resurrected during the 1,000 year reign of Jesus - remember, 1,000 years are as one day for Jehovah - see Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8. 


Still researching btw.


 

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2011 - 3:48PM #5
Newtonian
Posts: 11,299

*** rs p. 268 Memorial (Lord’s Evening Meal) ***


Does John 6:53, 54 indicate that only those who do partake will gain everlasting life?


John 6:53, 54: “Jesus said to them: ‘Most truly I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day.’”


This eating and drinking would obviously have to be done figuratively; otherwise the one doing it would be violating God’s law. (Gen. 9:4; Acts 15:28, 29) However, it should be noted that Jesus’ statement at John 6:53, 54 was not made in connection with the inauguration of the Lord’s Evening Meal. None who heard him had any idea of a celebration with bread and wine used to represent Christ’s flesh and blood. That arrangement was not introduced until about a year later, and the apostle John’s report about the Lord’s Evening Meal does not begin until more than seven chapters later on (in John 14) in the Gospel bearing his name.


How, then, can a person “eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood” in a figurative way if not by partaking of the bread and the wine at the Memorial? Notice that Jesus said that those thus eating and drinking would have “everlasting life.” Earlier, in verse 40, when explaining what people must do to have everlasting life, what did he say was the will of his Father? That “everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life.” Reasonably, then, ‘eating his flesh and drinking his blood’ in a figurative sense is done by exercising faith in the redeeming power of Jesus’ flesh and blood laid down in sacrifice. This exercising of faith is required of all who will gain the fullness of life, whether in the heavens with Christ or in the earthly Paradise."


end quote.


So, I am left with the difference in the Greek and hence the English - in the last day vs. at or to the last day.   My suspicion is that those of the heavenly calling, who will have life in themselves, will be resurrecte to the last day or to the 1,000 year reign, while those of the earthly calling will be resurrected in the last day or during the 1,000 year reign.


Now - that involves Greek - so I will ask that part of the question on apologist's thread on Greek.


Also, I will see if other friends have researched this!


 

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2011 - 7:08PM #6
Darlene
Posts: 311

I am not a JW so forgive me if my comments might interfere with your discussion. As I study scripture, I see a lot of duality. It is interesting to me that, when God created the heaven and the earth, it is said that he created it in six days and rested the seventh day and sanctified it. I don't know if these were literal "days", 24 hour days. But, the picture is clear nonetheless. Later, when he called Israel out of Egypt, and taught them his commandments, the Sabbath command reads "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not work..." Ex 20:8-10a) 


This is the same picture at creation. Now it was mentioned above that a day is as a thousand years to God. Could it be that the duality continues? God has given mankind six-thousand years to do all his labor, but the seventh-thousand year is the sabbath rest of the Lord and man's work ends?


Does our Lord return to usher in the sabbath? According to Rev 20:4-5. when the redeemed are resurrected, they live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead do not live again until the thousand years are finished, which would be the eighth day. It is interesting to note that the fall feast of Tabernacles is a seven-day festival, followed by an eighth day known as the Great Day. John 7:37 says "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink". Could this be alluding to the Great White Throne Judgment following the thousand year reign of the saints, who were granted to share in the Lord's sabbath? I would welcome your thoughts on this.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 09, 2011 - 7:44PM #7
Darlene
Posts: 311

I thought of something else along this line. In Hebrews, the third chapter, God tells us He was grieved with those who left Egypt because of their disobedence. He declared that they, therefore, would not enter His "rest", which for them was entrance into the promised land. Summarizing chapter 4, we are told that believers have the promise of entering into His rest, if we do not fall under the same unbelief. Verses 8-9, "For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2011 - 12:41PM #8
Newtonian
Posts: 11,299

Hi Darlene - Sorry for the delay in responding here.


Well, yes, at one time we believed Armageddon might come by 1975 - from our calculations close to the 6,000th year of the 7th creative day - which, as you note from Hebrews 4 still remains for us to enter into that rest day.


We used to think the 1,000 year reign of Christ would be a sabbath within the sabbath - i.e. the 7th 1,000 year day within the 7th 7,000 year day.


We were wrong - at least on the chronology part. 


There are two Scriptural reasons why we had to be wrong:



1.  Jesus will return at an hour Jesus' faithful followers (hopefully: us) would not think to be it - so if we could calculate the hour then we would think that hour to be it - which would then negate Jesus' prophecy!  But, of course, Jesus' prophecy proved true!


(Matthew 24:42-44) 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming. 43 “But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.


The fact that we did have premature expectations was humbling to us - but it also proved Jesus' prophecy to be accurate!



2. If the last day could be calculated, then Jesus could have calculated it.  Jesus knew the exact day and hour of the beginning of the 7th creative day - so he would have known the exact day and hour of the 6th 1,000 years of that day.  Yet Jesus could not calculate this day - so that he did not know the day and hour:


(Matthew 24:36) 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.


(Mark 13:32) “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.


 Ultimately, this also has proven the following scripture true, and helps us appreciate God's love, mercy and patience even more:


(2 Peter 3:9) Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

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3 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2011 - 10:09PM #9
anotherpaul
Posts: 2,702

Hi,


 


The parallels you mention are certainly interesting. The main difference would be the length of each day. It is interesting that in Scripture a Day is from Evening to Evening. Yet the creative days were from evening to morning. Consequently they were not 24 hour days and must be symbolic of a length of time. However since we are told a day with Jehovah can be a 1000 years and a 1000 years as a day, we can't figure it out. In fact we are also told a 1000 years is as a watch in the night to Jehovah and that was only 4 hours.Ceratin things jehovah keeps to himself, for our benefit. We know the length of Christ's rule, a 1000 years, but when it startes we do not know. That is actually a protection as we must keep on the watch as Jesus commanded.


 


 


Jan 9, 2011 -- 7:08PM, Darlene wrote:


I am not a JW so forgive me if my comments might interfere with your discussion. As I study scripture, I see a lot of duality. It is interesting to me that, when God created the heaven and the earth, it is said that he created it in six days and rested the seventh day and sanctified it. I don't know if these were literal "days", 24 hour days. But, the picture is clear nonetheless. Later, when he called Israel out of Egypt, and taught them his commandments, the Sabbath command reads "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not work..." Ex 20:8-10a) 


This is the same picture at creation. Now it was mentioned above that a day is as a thousand years to God. Could it be that the duality continues? God has given mankind six-thousand years to do all his labor, but the seventh-thousand year is the sabbath rest of the Lord and man's work ends?


Does our Lord return to usher in the sabbath? According to Rev 20:4-5. when the redeemed are resurrected, they live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead do not live again until the thousand years are finished, which would be the eighth day. It is interesting to note that the fall feast of Tabernacles is a seven-day festival, followed by an eighth day known as the Great Day. John 7:37 says "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink". Could this be alluding to the Great White Throne Judgment following the thousand year reign of the saints, who were granted to share in the Lord's sabbath? I would welcome your thoughts on this.





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3 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2011 - 12:32PM #10
Newtonian
Posts: 11,299

Hi Anotherpaul - Interesting - I never concluded that - about evening, then morning - I just assumed iit meant a symbolic day comparable to a literal day that began in the evening and then continued through the morning as Jewish days do. 


Was the watch always 4 hours long?  (see Matthew 14:25)


Anyway, Jesus also showed we do not know what watch Jesus will come in:


(Luke 12:35-40) 35 “Let YOUR loins be girded and YOUR lamps be burning, 36 and YOU yourselves be like men waiting for their master when he returns from the marriage, so that at his arriving and knocking they may at once open to him. 37 Happy are those slaves whom the master on arriving finds watching! Truly I say to YOU, He will gird himself and make them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them. 38 And if he arrives in the second watch, even if in the third, and finds them thus, happy are they! 39 But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief would come, he would have kept watching and not have let his house be broken into. 40 YOU also, keep ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think likely the Son of man is coming.”


(Matthew 24:43-44) . . .“But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.


 I think it is interesting that Jesus did not mention the fourth watch in the night referred to in Matthew 14:25.


In conclusion, with a touch of humor, we can still enter into God's rest as long as it may be called "today."  [Of course, see the context of the following {Hebrews chapters 3 & 4}and our literature on what this means.]


(Hebrews 3:13) . . .but keep on exhorting one another each day, as long as it may be called “Today,” for fear any one of YOU should become hardened by the deceptive power of sin.

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