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Switch to Forum Live View The LDS Church and Predestination
4 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2010 - 12:22PM #1
UwishUwereMe
Posts: 2,352

LDS Church teaches that I as a gay person will go to hell.  As it stands right now that is the doctrine. 


But since I was born this way just like I was born to two biological parents of north african and korean descent that is, God created me the way that I am in all facets of my being, does that imply that either the Church or many members there of believe in Predestination???


If the people that say that the Church does NOT believe in predestination based on that premise... I'd like to hear why. 


I still believe that I won't go to hell.  Out of the 3 Kingdoms of Glory... One like that of Saks, the Other like Target, and the 3RD like K-Mart I still believe due to all of my other goodly contributions on this earth I still may end up in the Target Heaven.  (Sorry i am from Minnesota, of course I am going to put Target over K-Mart).


Let's hear it...

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2010 - 12:40PM #2
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,074


Wish?? Are you really Mormon??


I mean any real Mormon knows that we don’t believe in hell! So just where are you coming from???


 


Are you breaking the law; ‘thou shall not have sex out side of marriage‘?


 


If not then you’re not bound for any sort of punishment at all.


The Church does not teach you were born that way so your question of predestination does not fit within the context of the Gospel.


Wise men still seek him.
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2010 - 5:47PM #3
UwishUwereMe
Posts: 2,352

See, WWA, this is why even though I differ vastly with you on a host of topics.  I feel VERY comfortable in dialog with you because you don't condemn me or belittle me and for that I am VERY grateful.


You come from a place of respect.  I would vote for you if you ran for office even if I didn't agree with your political stances because you a honest and straight to the point.


That's a compliment by-the-way.


First... I am as you know and of course Mormon... For better or worse. 


 


WWA Maybe I could have put a little more back ground into my post.  My premise was there... I didn't really build it up with enough back ground.


As you know... I am basically worthless to anyone.  We are big boys and girls here and if some kids snoop on this page and learn about the human physical nature than I am not responsible for that.  BUT, due to my injuries sustained in Iraq I am physically unable to have sex.  I mean my stuff is still there just not functioning to its full potential.  So, it would be impossible to break any laws of Chastity with a man or woman. 


Secondly... I didn't not want to be beaten up if I stated that a Bishop told me due to my "feelings of same sex attraction" he is afraid if I don't change my "feelings" I will end up in outer darkness.. furthest away from the presence of the Lord. 


I guess I was trying to use laymans terms for anyone that may be lurking when I called "outter-darkness" "hell" but let's not kid our selves.  I would be MORE scared of an outter darkness than a lake of fire and brimstone.  Either way you slice it, it's still "HELL."


He then went on to suggest in the middle of our converation no prompts that Some souls were never meant to go to "Heaven" any of the kingdoms.  So I asked like Predestination.  He looked at me puzzled and said, no more like "Pre-determination."


Well, he then went on to tell me I need to stop thinking about porn and masturbating.  I asked him where he got this idea... he said that ALL homosexuals to it.  It is animal and carnal. 


I finally said that no, not ALL homosexuals do anything.  Finally told him due to my injuries, my thingy doesn't work anyway.  He told me to "get that looked at by a doctor."


So... there is the back ground.  Now hopefully I have painted a clearer picture.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2010 - 7:32PM #4
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,074

 


Wish; Secondly... I didn't not want to be beaten up if I stated that a Bishop told me due to my "feelings of same sex attraction" he is afraid if I don't change my "feelings" I will end up in outer darkness.. furthest away from the presence of the Lord.


 



Uh … no, we all have attractions we aren’t condemned for attractions. It’s the acting upon those attractions. I also think sitting around thinking about that attractions ie the porn will get one in trouble.


The only way to get into outer darkness is to take out your endowments and then murder innocent blood. I don’t think you qualify for that, hopefully not.


I’m wondering why if you are not acting out your attractions you would feel the need to confess anything to the Bishop?


Wise men still seek him.
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 31, 2010 - 11:01PM #5
UwishUwereMe
Posts: 2,352

Well, I have never killed anyone personally.  Nope.  But you know I was a military officer.  I was in charge of people that had orders to kill.  I am sure innocent people were killed as colateral damage under orders I was expected to give.


I have a lot of guilt about that.  I sometimes wonder if maybe what happened to me was some sort of punishment.


I haven't felt any need to "confess" anything.  A Bishop was concerned because I was talking to a young man at chruch that wanted to join the military.  So I hung out with this young man.  Told him all of the wonderful things that can come from military service and all of the wonderful opportunities that can come from it. 


Well, someone in my singles ward told the Bishop that she was concerned for Taylor because he was hanging out with a "known homosexual."


So the Bishop asked just what kind of a "relationship" he and I have.  I told the Bishop straight up.  Taylor is 18 i am almost 30.  He has no Dad in his life he has a semester of highschool left and is wondering about what to to with his life post-high school.


I was giving him insight on the military.  The Bishop asked if I brought up the fact that I am a homosexual.  I told the Bishop that hadn't even crossed my mind.  The Bishop inquired a little more saying Taylor is young, attractive, erc, are you sure you didn't bring it up.  I said no.  I said that due to my life circumstances i have waaaaaaayyyyyyyy too much going on in my life to even make "being gay" a priority.  I do have those feelings.  I do not "date" in a way that is "dating.  I just live my life with me and my doggy and try to enjoy everyday that God gives me.


It was the Bishop (A Bishop that I had had before years back he is STILL a Bishop) the seemed almost obsessed with my being gay. 


He is in assumption mode that I am "watching porn" "all the time" and so on.  I can't even get physically "turned on."  What would be the point.  For me watching porn would be the worst part of electro-shock-therapy.  Because my body couldn't even react to the erotisism if it wanted to. 


Little bit by little bit you are getting more of the plot out of me... I am reluctant anymore to share my experiences because I have been met with such scrutiny and such vinegar. 


But these are my experiences.  I still go to Church.  I believe it is important.  We all seem to be on such a topic of GC talks as of late and I am reminded of one where the GA that gave the talk once said to go to Church for you.  For personal reasons.  To go to Church for personal healing.  To get something out of it.  I go to Church for me.  I don't hide the fact that I am gay adn sympathetic to gay causes.  But I don't wear some sort of badge, or feel it necessary to bring up in general conversation.


No.  I have not acted on anything for a long time.  When I did I confessed and was "dealt with accordingly."


WWA, You and I have definately not agreed on a whole host of topics.  But I find you and much of what you post VERY comforting.  You actually remind me a lot of my Mom.  Its kinda nice actually.


I get anxious sometimes.  Sometimes I have circumstantial situations due to who or what I am.  Things happen.

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2010 - 1:19AM #6
imbobbbb
Posts: 226

Well uwish,neighbors,coworkers,employers,bishops,etc. shouldn't make assumptions without evidence that someone is doing something wrong.Its not unusual though for people to jump to conclusions about situations they can't personally relate too.....but its still wrong.I've talked to many women in my ward but so far no one has accussed me of trying to have an affair with one.Its pretty silly for someone to assume that every gay guy who is talking to another guy is trying to pick him up.I haven't see any studies but i'm not sure that gays are any more likely to like porn than straight people are either,and many straight people seem to have quite an interest in it.


If you are living the best life you can live it really doesn't matter what anyone else 'thinks'.You and God know your heart and your bishop isn't going to get a vote on where you spend eternity anyway.He is probably doing his best too but we are all flawed.Sometimes a church leader is the best leader for the ward or stake or church as a whole.......even if he isn't the best leader for every individual or group within the church.He won't be your bishop forever and hopefully he is good for your ward on balance,even if,like all of us,he could use some work in a few areas.I know I need work in a LOT of areas.SmileI'm glad to see you hanging in there and not just going inactive every time somebody offends you like a lot of people seem to do. goodluck

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2010 - 3:11AM #7
moksha8088
Posts: 4,918

U-wish, it's a bit tangential but as I understand it, Outer Darkness in Mormon thought is reserved for those with complete and utter knowledge of God, et al... and still refuse him.  That would exclude all of us here at Beliefnet from that potential pool of candidates.

Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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4 years ago  ::  Nov 01, 2010 - 11:13AM #8
UwishUwereMe
Posts: 2,352

Y'know.  I read read all of these posts and the funny thing is, that I for the first time in a long time do not feel attacked in the least as I have felt in some other posts.  I have stayed away from here for a long time because things got kinda heated.


But WWA prodded a little got the rest of the story out of me.  We have some back ground to work with.  Then the answers started comeing. 


I have always said that I post my personal experiences here because maybe they can give some people some where some kind of hope. 


To many people I know it is an absolute miracle that I do still go to Church and voluntarily retain my membership.  I get into arguements with other gay people about my retention of my "Mormon card."


But, I feel like if i can struggle through the weirdness and the accusations and the fickle people so can anyone else.  It is MY faith.  You can't really take away someones faith.  Members will say to me that if I disagree with one tiny aspect of the Church why even come?  Because if the Church has doctrine like 10,000 pieces of sand and only one piece of sand is questionable to me... aren't the 9,999 pieces of sand worth enjoying and experiencing???


Maybe some 16 year old gay kid is reading my post and is thinking no one knows where he is coming from.  He is really struggling.  I can't be the only gay member that get beat on a little bit.  Maybe he was at conference with his parents and heard the Packer talk.  Maybe he reads my posts and says "Dang, that guy is really pittiful, yet he over looks the ignorance and rudeness by some to enjoy the 9,999 pieces of "good sand."


I don't know.  I have received private emails from people telling me to keep my stride.  That they have a gay relative or friend or som and that my posts have helped.  I have talked to parents of teenagers that have found out who I am and called me or have come over to chat.  They find out "gay" is what a person makes it.  I was a model, a military man, a marathon runner, and I am the best dog owner EVER!  They see the "human side of gay."


Then I tell them that there is a good chance that their kid is just questioning.  If he or she is gay... they don't suddenly become another person.  The parents didn't fail.  Life goes on. 


To quote the band "Everclear"


"They can't hurt you unless you let them."


 

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2010 - 4:58PM #9
Lardorian
Posts: 26

Interesting post's here. What the heck... I'll toss in my 3 cents. Mind you, there is a LOT we don't know and a lot of conflicting information. Look at the last GC... one Apostle expressed his opinion on same gender atttraction. A few days later he modified what he said and then a member of the 1st Presidency says.. (pardon my paraphrasing here) hey...nobody knows the WHY...we only know we are ALL God's children and HE expects us to love each other. Now as to what is and what is not sin in the matter...it seems to me, from what *I* have been able to gather that the sin is in the acting out on temptations. SO I don't think anybody is going to hell on that one.  As far as hell (or outer darkness if you prefer) I've heard it said (and it seems reasonable to me) that in order to buy that ticket you have to turn your back on the Holy Ghost AFTER having a perfect knowledge of the existence of same which sounds an awful lot like post "calling and election". Mind you....that isn't impossible. Another thing that strikes me..a person does not have to be able to perform all the bodily functions a "whole" person would be able to in order to violate the law of chastity...remember Bill Clinton?


 


That said...it's interesting what Uwish is saying about his bishop. Again...the bish isn't a perfect all knowing person. If Pres. Packer can be confused...then certainly the bishop can as well. It is however a bit "off" in my never TOO humble opinion to be making the assumptions that "all gays do it" blah blah blah. That's just silly. Fact is, when it comes to porn it's at or close to the top of the list of grievous transgressions that hetersexuals go see the bishop about.


If it were ME, I think I'd strongly consider going to a normal family ward. Here again, as a convert I have always wondered why we have this need for singles wards in the 1st place. Having singles wards certainly isn't helping the LDS divorce rate. But pardon me... I digress...I think there might be less bologna in the (non meat market) family ward. There are plenty of members in family wards who for whatever reason have never married. The thing to focus on is your relationship with God. You know...just because you've had an attraction at some point to members of your own sex doesn't mean you can't get a temple recommend and go perform service there. I will cite as an example the fact that Joseph Fielding Smith who was the patriarch of the church in the 1940's was released from that calling due to the fact he'd had a homosexual relationship with some guy. Later (1957 I think) he had everything fully restored by the president of the church. When you consider that his transgression was twofold...A: having the homosexual relationship and B. the fact he was married which gave him the double down whammy for adultry then I think it puts another light on the miracle of forgiveness. THe Lord has the capacity to forgive it and forget it...we should emulate that.


 


You know...it's a whole 'nother can O worms...but there are those who feel that when all is said and done there will be some type of provision for Lucifer to obtain a forgiveness. I mean hey...the whole plan thing wouldn't work if there wasn't a tempter would it? Somebody had to wear the black hat.


 


I'll wrap up this episode by saying I think we should all focus more on love. we ALL have sins we could obsess on...instead lets focus on things we CAN do that are right.


 


love


-me


 

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4 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2010 - 5:57PM #10
Aka_me
Posts: 11,940

Nov 1, 2010 -- 11:13AM, UwishUwereMe wrote:

They see the "human side of gay."



that's like saying "the human side of blond", or "the human side of midget", or "the human side male".


how many of us are surprised to discover the human side of male?


 


thinking that a person can just switch choices, is liking asking a heterosexual to become homosexual. if it's just that easy for them, it should be that easy for everyone.


I remember watching an old twighlight episode where they only showed this one attractive female going in for plastic surgery. I can't remember but I think they took the bandages off and she still looked the same, then the camera zoomed out and showed everyone else looking monstrously ugly, and she couldn't live with herself being beautiful.


that show made me think about "as a hetero" what would my world be like if EVERYONE were homosexual.


could I "just buck up" and go through life pretending to be gay?


because that's what people are expecting homosexuals to do.


what would be nice... is if we could determine whether "change" is even within the realm of possibility.


is it even within reality, to say develop a pill... that will change the hormonal levels?


if it is, then let's invest in understanding where the hormonal levels are set, rather than torture people with electro shock / blood letting barbarism.


and if it's not... then let's stop giving any false impressions of being able to do any "fixing".

internet troll... anyone who won't stop posting about bad spelling.
the government KILLS and EXPERIMENTS and TORTURES people, without ever apologizing, being held accountable or punished. and you expect me to believe they've automagically grown a conscience to not continue? like bloody hades they have.
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