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4 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2010 - 3:15PM #21
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

Aug 7, 2010 -- 3:00PM, Innerpoint wrote:


Aug 7, 2010 -- 2:50PM, Brownowl33 wrote:

I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you there.  I take the term "self initiation" from Doreen Valiente, who used it and included a ritual for it in her book "Witchcraft for Tomorrow."  A book which predates Cunningham's first one by years.  Now, I cannot imagine anyone saying Valiente wasn't a "real" Wiccan, or that she was some kind of fake "fluffy bunny" (two slurs I often see hurled at the late Scott Cunningham) so that's why I use the term "self initiation."  I like and respect her writings very much, and considering she's help by many to be the Mother of Wicca, if it's good enough for her, it's good enough for me.



When I sat and talked with Doreen (noted, that this was after her association with Cochrane during which she  first drafted the part about self-initiation), she often expressed regret for that particular wording.  Doreen was, indeed, one of the major players in what we've come to call Wicca - having taken Gardner's written points and rewriting, rewording, and reworking a lot of what he had proposed.  But, I digress in old memories and talks - this actually has nothing to do with the working of the Fae.





Well, it does have to do with the words themselves.  Initiate is to do something.  You can start or initiate something, but in that, you have act on something.  Quite frankly self dedication make more sense, etmylogically than self initiate.  Self initiation still begs another object for the individual to act on.  And dedication isn't any less important than initiation, in my view.  But I am also on Musinex D at the moment, so I am not sure if this post made any sense or not.

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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4 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2010 - 3:39PM #22
Innerpoint
Posts: 1,067

Aug 7, 2010 -- 3:15PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:

Well, it does have to do with the words themselves.  Initiate is to do something.  You can start or initiate something, but in that, you have act on something.  Quite frankly self dedication make more sense, etmylogically than self initiate.  Self initiation still begs another object for the individual to act on.  And dedication isn't any less important than initiation, in my view.


Indeed, not.  The dedication has to be there before any thoughts of initiation can be entertained.  The working model here is the same as any other initiatory organization.  Take, for instance, a college fraternity/sorority... without the initiation being performed at the behest, acknowledgment, and will of the group, Johnny and/or Susie Que is just blowing hot air when they claim self-initiation into that group.  They're not recognized as members and would be, sensibly, ostracized for making that claim.  Again, with Masonry (another rather secretive society) the same thing would happen.  Given our understanding and definition of initiation within our Circles, this claim isn't recognized unless it can be vouched for and attributed to another in good standing within that particular group.  Even initiations by other groups don't always grant access to a different group - unless the group has a working understanding or agreement to do so.  Of course, I still speak towards what I was taught - and given my teachers and mentors, it's going to be the old-school ways and meanings.

Aug 7, 2010 -- 3:15PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:

But I am also on Musinex D at the moment, so I am not sure if this post made any sense or not.


(((SG)))  We can always muddle through your ramblings. >grins<

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2010 - 6:11PM #23
Brownowl33
Posts: 443

I can agree with the "self dedication" wording; that does make sense.  I was just afraid things were going down the "you're not really a Wiccan unless you're an initiated Gardnerian" road, which I don't agree with.  I can see the difference between the "initiation" and "dedication" thing, though.


I think Doreen Valiente is the magical person I would most liked to have met, even more than Gardner.  I simply love her writing, and she had a kind of no-nonsense, down to Earth style that's most refreshing.  I'm also a big fan of the Farrars; obviously Stewart is no longer with us, but Janet is very much alive (though no longer practicing BTW; I believe she's much more progressive now.)  I just don't think they make them like they used to.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2010 - 6:13PM #24
Brownowl33
Posts: 443

Aug 7, 2010 -- 3:15PM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:


Aug 7, 2010 -- 3:00PM, Innerpoint wrote:


Aug 7, 2010 -- 2:50PM, Brownowl33 wrote:

I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you there.  I take the term "self initiation" from Doreen Valiente, who used it and included a ritual for it in her book "Witchcraft for Tomorrow."  A book which predates Cunningham's first one by years.  Now, I cannot imagine anyone saying Valiente wasn't a "real" Wiccan, or that she was some kind of fake "fluffy bunny" (two slurs I often see hurled at the late Scott Cunningham) so that's why I use the term "self initiation."  I like and respect her writings very much, and considering she's help by many to be the Mother of Wicca, if it's good enough for her, it's good enough for me.



When I sat and talked with Doreen (noted, that this was after her association with Cochrane during which she  first drafted the part about self-initiation), she often expressed regret for that particular wording.  Doreen was, indeed, one of the major players in what we've come to call Wicca - having taken Gardner's written points and rewriting, rewording, and reworking a lot of what he had proposed.  But, I digress in old memories and talks - this actually has nothing to do with the working of the Fae.





Well, it does have to do with the words themselves.  Initiate is to do something.  You can start or initiate something, but in that, you have act on something.  Quite frankly self dedication make more sense, etmylogically than self initiate.  Self initiation still begs another object for the individual to act on.  And dedication isn't any less important than initiation, in my view.  But I am also on Musinex D at the moment, so I am not sure if this post made any sense or not.





Ha!  I love Mucinex, but it makes me kind of spacey, too.  It's odd that you wrote that, because I'm pretty medicated today myself; in fact, I came back on here to re-read my posts from today to make sure that A: I was making sense, and B: I didn't sound too grumpy/pecuckoo/silly.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2010 - 10:51PM #25
Innerpoint
Posts: 1,067

Aug 7, 2010 -- 6:11PM, Brownowl33 wrote:

I think Doreen Valiente is the magical person I would most liked to have met, even more than Gardner.  I simply love her writing, and she had a kind of no-nonsense, down to Earth style that's most refreshing.  I'm also a big fan of the Farrars; obviously Stewart is no longer with us, but Janet is very much alive (though no longer practicing BTW; I believe she's much more progressive now.)  I just don't think they make them like they used to.


The Farrars are my teacher's teachers.  I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to get the most from a lot of the 'older' heads - and those thoughts and values have tended to stick.  Alex I never had the pleasure of knowing but Maxine, Stewart, Janet, Doreen, and a lot of the other 'names' were some of my contacts and mentors.  I know I come off as an old fogey and a stick-in-the-mud at times, but I'm seeing things go in a way that I'm not sure they would have all agreed with.

And yes... I've been around 'that long'.  This coming December will be 31 years since I received my third.  And sometimes, I feel it!! >grins< 

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 07, 2010 - 11:21PM #26
Brownowl33
Posts: 443

Aug 7, 2010 -- 10:51PM, Innerpoint wrote:


Aug 7, 2010 -- 6:11PM, Brownowl33 wrote:

I think Doreen Valiente is the magical person I would most liked to have met, even more than Gardner.  I simply love her writing, and she had a kind of no-nonsense, down to Earth style that's most refreshing.  I'm also a big fan of the Farrars; obviously Stewart is no longer with us, but Janet is very much alive (though no longer practicing BTW; I believe she's much more progressive now.)  I just don't think they make them like they used to.


The Farrars are my teacher's teachers.  I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to get the most from a lot of the 'older' heads - and those thoughts and values have tended to stick.  Alex I never had the pleasure of knowing but Maxine, Stewart, Janet, Doreen, and a lot of the other 'names' were some of my contacts and mentors.  I know I come off as an old fogey and a stick-in-the-mud at times, but I'm seeing things go in a way that I'm not sure they would have all agreed with.

And yes... I've been around 'that long'.  This coming December will be 31 years since I received my third.  And sometimes, I feel it!! >grins< 




 


I am just now 30, so I think I missed out on a lot of the earlier teachers unfortunately.  I can remember when Doreen Valiente and Stewart Farrar died but I never had a chance to meet them.  Living in Texas, I don't really come across many prestigious British traditional teachers.  I've actually looked into a few local groups, but the couple I talked to were really flakey and I decided probably not up to snuff (which is really just as well, because I'm more interested in Feri and, to some extent, Reclaiming at the moment.)  I am fortunate in that I was able to find good literature on the subject and, I think, get a good basic grasp on Wicca instead of falling prey to the anything-goes kind of books that seem to sell so well.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2011 - 3:33PM #27
Zavist
Posts: 32

Jul 31, 2010 -- 8:43AM, Brownowl33 wrote:

These are two traditions I am looking at myself right now.  As SG pointed out, they aren't Wicca, but they ARE Witchcraft Traditions.  Reclaiming, as far as I can tell, is Goddess-oriented and very politically active.  They focus on equality, the Earth, and social justice.  They're kind of like the Unitarian Universalists of the Witch world.  Feri (which is how I see it spelled most commonly) is a Witchcraft Tradition started by Victor and Cora Anderson.  It's an ecstatic religion versus a fertility religion, like Wicca. That is to say, it focuses mainly on internal transformation and personal religious experience.  They have their own pantheon and Gods, which include a Star Goddess and a Blue God, who's androgynous.  They have some very unique practices, like The Iron Pentacle.  They're oathbound, so very little about their actual beliefs is published.


Being gay, I think my own future lies in Feri.  I am trying to find a teacher at the moment.  Feri training can last for several years, and is very involved.  I think it's a better fit, personally, for gay and gender variant people than Wicca, with its male/female dichotomy.  Another group you might want to look into is The Minoan Brotherhood.  This is a branch of Wicca solely for gay men; it was founded by a Third Degree Gardnerian, who wanted to have a religious practice for other gay men like himself (he found Wicca too heterosexist.)  They've got a few websites online.  They're also oathbound and use a more or less traditional Gardnerian structure, as far as I know ( almost nothing of their real beliefs or rituals is public.)


Anyway, hope this helps!


We happen to be two halfs of the same spectrum. though our ideas have clashed in a previous forum, I too am a homosexual and I too have a great interest in Feary Tradition. Message me please with any info you have and please forgive any negativity you may have sensed from my earlier posts with you, it was all in the name of good old fashion online debating ;).


Beatus Esse!


-Zavist-

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