Post Reply
Page 2 of 2  •  Prev 1 2
4 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2011 - 6:24PM #11
Bob_Bennett
Posts: 916

Aug 22, 2010 -- 11:40PM, Gary wrote:

yes to the extent that i can i have tried to read ACIM.


It is a mixutre of Christian concepts and symbolism and Tebetian Budhist symbols and concepts.


I can't really comment on the Christian aspect of it but the Budhist concepts and very poorly misrepresented.


The book falls into the broader catagory of Nihilism in my opinion. (The physical world is meaningless).


I also understand that people that do not have access to the fist level of consciousness we generally call non-dual have an understandable tendancy to view non-dualism as something far away and unatainable or "mysterious". This is why it is important to try to learn religious concepts from people who themselves have direct access to these higher levels of consciousness and can guide you there properly. The old saying comes to mind about following a blind person into a ditch.


Nihilism is a very dangerous and unhealthy thing and not at all spiritual or a "miracle".


The reason i make these posts is because people at your level are poised to take the next step into a more open minded relationship to the universe. ACIM in my mind represents a close minded or rather small minded trap that catches a very important group of people and prevents their developement. (a proprietary trademarked trap at that).


Gary:


The Course is not a mixture of anything; it is its own thing.


The major use of what you call Christian symbols is meant to demonstrate the continuity of the present teacher, Jesus, with prior sources of scripture, the Jewish bible and the New Testament.


 


What you call 'Nihilism' is a philosphy and it is not part of the Course.  In here, the world is seen as nothing more than a mental projection from our consciousness that is taking place within a dream, and as such, can not have any meaning.


In pure non-dualism, the universe does not exist at the God level.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Feb 09, 2011 - 2:02AM #12
Gary
Posts: 18

Feb 8, 2011 -- 6:24PM, Bob_Bennett wrote:


Gary:


The Course is not a mixture of anything; it is its own thing.


The major use of what you call Christian symbols is meant to demonstrate the continuity of the present teacher, Jesus, with prior sources of scripture, the Jewish bible and the New Testament.


 


What you call 'Nihilism' is a philosphy and it is not part of the Course.  In here, the world is seen as nothing more than a mental projection from our consciousness that is taking place within a dream, and as such, can not have any meaning.


In pure non-dualism, the universe does not exist at the God level.




Lets just look breifly at what you just said about non-dualism.
What you just said is the core of christian dualism.
As in god and physical reality are seperate.
You got your one thing "god level" Then you have your seperate "not god level".
And the two things form a fixed  DUALITY of opposites.
Good and Evil if you will. Right thoughts and wrong thoughts.
The idea that ACIM is non dualistic is absurd to the point of being an outright distortion.
Like i said it's an understandable distortion but not a very elevated one.
just a run of the mill first tear thinking confusion common to most forms of christianity.

I will state this another way that is more in keeping with reality and the actual meaning of non dualism. In actual non dual thinking  there is no difference between the unity of god and
the seperation we see around us every day. The universe exists this much is obvious and to say otherwise IS to deny an obvious reality BUT the seperation itself is illusory.
In true non dual awareness I am not seperate from the tree but paradoxically I AM seperate from the tree also. That is what it feels like to have non dual awareness.
In this non dual awareness the notion that something within the one has no meaning is an absurdity of wildly dualistic folly (everything by definition is within the one for there is no outside and there is no two) Even things that are and things that are not are the same one thing.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Feb 12, 2011 - 10:25AM #13
spiritheart
Posts: 122

Feb 9, 2011 -- 2:02AM, Gary wrote:

Feb 8, 2011 -- 6:24PM, Bob_Bennett wrote:


Gary:


The Course is not a mixture of anything; it is its own thing.


The major use of what you call Christian symbols is meant to demonstrate the continuity of the present teacher, Jesus, with prior sources of scripture, the Jewish bible and the New Testament.


 


What you call 'Nihilism' is a philosphy and it is not part of the Course.  In here, the world is seen as nothing more than a mental projection from our consciousness that is taking place within a dream, and as such, can not have any meaning.


In pure non-dualism, the universe does not exist at the God level.




Lets just look breifly at what you just said about non-dualism.
What you just said is the core of christian dualism.
As in god and physical reality are seperate.
You got your one thing "god level" Then you have your seperate "not god level".
And the two things form a fixed  DUALITY of opposites.
Good and Evil if you will. Right thoughts and wrong thoughts.
The idea that ACIM is non dualistic is absurd to the point of being an outright distortion.
Like i said it's an understandable distortion but not a very elevated one.
just a run of the mill first tear thinking confusion common to most forms of christianity.

I will state this another way that is more in keeping with reality and the actual meaning of non dualism. In actual non dual thinking  there is no difference between the unity of god and
the seperation we see around us every day. The universe exists this much is obvious and to say otherwise IS to deny an obvious reality BUT the seperation itself is illusory.
In true non dual awareness I am not seperate from the tree but paradoxically I AM seperate from the tree also. That is what it feels like to have non dual awareness.
In this non dual awareness the notion that something within the one has no meaning is an absurdity of wildly dualistic folly (everything by definition is within the one for there is no outside and there is no two) Even things that are and things that are not are the same one thing.


Gary...insightful the way you have expressed your views, however the same 'idea' is presented the Course...which by the way is clearly stated is not for everyone, and this should not be taken personal  as some form of rejection or exclusiveness, but rather as a symbology of ideas that in truth can not be shared  at the level you are describing.  You referred to Christainity and Budduhism as if it where somehow trying to extend those beleif systems... not so, though there are some cross-references, it is accepted that the reader will not be swayed to think that it is.


You speak will of your insights... Howevr  for the life of me I cannot understand why you want to belittle the efforts of the course to ultimately teach as much.  


What is your goal if indeed you beleive what you say..you are one and the same with all that you experience... is experience meant to be  served in conflict?    The course contends it is but to know Peace  is what we seek... because as you say, and the course teaches, 'we will find what we seek' and we seek what we love, and what we love we seek....  Do you seek conflict?   Or do you love True so much, you have come to possess it? To defend it? 


The course teaches whether we know it or not we are teaching what we know... if we find ourselves always in conflict, perhaps we reexamine our motives, if indeed we feel we have found the truth.


j


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2011 - 4:50AM #14
Gary
Posts: 18

Feb 8, 2011 -- 6:24PM, Bob_Bennett wrote:


 


 


You speak will of your insights... Howevr  for the life of me I cannot understand why you want to belittle the efforts of the course to ultimately teach as much.


What is your goal if indeed you beleive what you say..you are one and the same with all that you experience... is experience meant to be  served in conflict?    The course contends it is but to know Peace  is what we seek... because as you say, and the course teaches, 'we will find what we seek' and we seek what we love, and what we love we seek....  Do you seek conflict?   Or do you love True so much, you have come to possess it? To defend it?


The course teaches whether we know it or not we are teaching what we know... if we find ourselves always in conflict, perhaps we reexamine our motives, if indeed we feel we have found the truth.


j


 




 


lets see -- goal or motivation.


this is a good question that deserves an answer.


I attempt to nudge the stuck. That is my goal.  People who a get stuck at the level the course is written on  are important because you have gotten that far. So if just one person reads what i write and drops the close minded stance then the time wasted on my part is 100% worth it.  I also feel that the course represents a level of close mindedness and stuck sort of retreat and entrenchment away from reality that it can be dangerous for the overall. I have also read and studied the ideas presented in the couse as they have appeared throught modern human history and it never turn out so good. When people start getting high on feelings of omnipotence to fill voids in their lives very bad things can and often do happen. I am the voice in the wilderness sounding that warning. The next step for you guys is a big one. getting stuck where you are and hiding in fantasy is a bad thing full of dangeous pitfalls for society in general. I also believe that the course represents certain mental dysfunctions that i could explain better given more time. Basically it is in part a dysfunctional coping mechanism for broken symbol making systems in the brain. health is always better than not health yes? Too much change too fast in human society cause broken symbol making. As an example in our society we say we believe in "families" but very few of us actually have a real loving family. If we actually all had loving healthy family structures we wouldn't go around talking about how we "believe" in families and family values.


conflict well yes i guess that is true.


I also have no problem with conflict as i have a nondualistic viewpoint in general and do not divide my experiences into good and bad and  peace and conflict. Again that way of thinking is dualistic. healthy apropriate  conflict is obviously quite important  and is as important to me as love and peace and anger and fear and all the rest of it.   I am not interesting in choping the world and everything in it into two halves. The half i like and the half i don't like. I like it all. And at the same time some things i do not choose to like and do not like. paradox is not a problem for me either.


I do not like the course in miracles for instance and speak out against it becuse it is essentially thought reform and the goal is a dangerous narsistic high. the workbook teaches you to thing "I AM GOD!!!" that's pretty f*&^ed up yes? crazy and megalomoniacal delusions of grandure you get the point.


I value the health of the spiral and everyone in their different levels and headspace.


So when poeple are going along in health at whatever level and are open to other ideas and opinions i never give them a hard time. To each their own. live and let live.


I do understand that pushing at people like this is slightly aggressive but we live in crazy times, even dangerous times, and someone better start speaking out about this kind of thing. So yea i'm being agressive and beating people over the head but only becuase you need it so i do it. If you didn't need it i wouldn't do it.


There are many places where people get stuck and become close minded. Close mindedness is the enemy.  All that crap you wrote above for instance is a string of close minded thought terminating cliches designed to close discussion and block growth and change. It is closed not open. you are not open to what i am saying but rather are blocking with mindless circular half  ideas that go nowhere on purpose. "'we will find what we seek' and we seek what we love, and what we love we seek" WTF wake up dude a mind is a terrible thing to waste on half baked dim witted fake visionisms.


THE truth at least form my perspective seems to be nothing but an unfolding of different and ever expanding perspectives that end who knows where. I can not own that or defend it because i do not know what it is. Or at least what it will be next.  I can however identify the truths i have been through so far and i generally know the pitfalls and dead ends that arise at the transition points where one falls away and the next opens up. preasures begin to  as the current system begins to erode. stay open minded and  you move forward. shut down and go closed  and start saying crap like.  " "'we will find what we seek' and we seek what we love, and what we love we seek"  and you get stuck forever.

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Feb 13, 2011 - 3:58PM #15
spiritheart
Posts: 122

Gary , as i said you make valid points...and i can relate in some respects to your passion, and your thinking that in the process all you are trying to do with your own beliefs is   'nudging' others away from what you think is an inferior model for understanding perception, projection, spirit, experience and the ego (which is in itself the maker of limiting beliefs it tries to justify as absolute truths) Examples in politics, religion,, philosophy, sports, and all manner of cultural icons can be observed in the same manner...it is the nature of duality that you say you have risen above.


But where I differ from you in this context only, not as brothers, is that I see what you want for yourself...you would withhold from others.  You also get personal...totally in what the ACIM would say Ego(percieving your brothers are lacking in something you have)... you see the world according to your image.  No doubt in my mind you have it all within...but seriously at this point you are talking to yourself...because who else is really going to listen when you attack without provocation... you are talking to yourself...are you listening?


 I think the word Pride might be in order...for anyone who professes to be a  'free thinker' as you expound, has no call to use the language you use in a discussion group that you obviously are not interested in participating in or quite frankly lacks understandsing. (which in itself as not right or wrong...but if I going to talk about Home Ec, I not going to a P.E. class to teach it... In my mind this is what you are trying to do... you have good ideas... but 'conflict' or as the religious world has done long enough try to convert through intimedation.


 


j


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 

Quick Reply
Cancel
4 years ago  ::  Mar 13, 2011 - 5:19PM #16
Bob_Bennett
Posts: 916

In post # 14 Gary misattributes several paragraphs to me, but I did not write them.

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Oct 02, 2011 - 1:19AM #17
Gary
Posts: 18

Feb 13, 2011 -- 3:58PM, spiritheart wrote:


...it is the nature of duality that you say you have risen above.


 


 


 


 





This is the basic problem i was trying to address.


There is NO SUCH THING as rising above duality. The very notion of duality vs non-duality forms a duality and only exists in dualistic constructs. So the notion of "rising above dualism" is by definiton a dualistic concept. In non-dual concepts there are only thing to reach down and embrace and enfold. The more you can enfold and include the closer you get to non-dualism.


true non-dualism is reached when all things and all not things have been included.


I'm not even trying to argue that this is better. I'm just saying what it obviously IS.


When you define dualistic extreemism as "non-dualism" the way the course does you take away language. This in turn takes away peoples ability to think.This is what the great psychiatrist Robert J Lifton calls Mileu control. Thoughts outside the system aren't allowed to exist.


Remember in 1984 in the beginnng when the thought police keep making the dictionary every year smaller and smaller.


Non-dualism is a very difficult thing to grasp and comprehend. But a very important thing.


If you strip the word of it's meaning then the concept is lost forever. It just goes away.


So the REAL question becomes why does the course not describe itself as dualistic ?


It doesn't have to.


There wold be no harm in this, It would do no violence to the language and would leave people involved in the course free to contemplate the nature of a divided reality chopped up into this and that as the course does in exactly the same way as before. see that door over there -- it's nothing. It's seperate from what's real. Only god is real and everything else is not real. Thus jesus spoke to Helen about the nature of duality and how the world is divided.


That's what the gnostics did. they said basically that everything in the perceived world was false and god existed outside of the percieved world. A perfectly valid and open point of view for a certain level AND they called it and understood it as dualistic extreemism.


So the point of calling exactly the same thing "non-dualism" has to be to take away the ability to think and percieve. Which is a tenant of thought reform or brainwashing.


It's a kind of closing down options. Much in the same way modern politics tries to close down options. For instance in "peace" or "promoting peace" means dropping  bombs on people then you have tried to take away the ability for people to think about what "peace" actually is.


The government could say -- look we are going to make a war and murder people. But NO they say insteadd they are making "peace". It's a lie yes but it's more that a lie. it's an attempt at brainwashing.


As they said in 1984. Soon the dictionary will disapear alltogether and we will have perfect "unity".  a unity of no thought with no language to express it. Then the work of the thought police will be done and the ideas of the radicals will be eliminated.

Quick Reply
Cancel
3 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 6:06PM #18
Bob_Bennett
Posts: 916

Gary,



The absolute non-dualism of the Course does not involve another dualism.   There is no alternative to God or Truth or Heaven.   These ideas stand alone.

Quick Reply
Cancel
13 months ago  ::  Dec 30, 2013 - 6:04AM #19
TheNinja
Posts: 3

Jun 4, 2012 -- 6:06PM, Bob_Bennett wrote:


Gary,



The absolute non-dualism of the Course does not involve another dualism.   There is no alternative to God or Truth or Heaven.   These ideas stand alone.





Hey Laughing Could you explain this?

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 2 of 2  •  Prev 1 2
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook