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4 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2010 - 12:48AM #1
Gary
Posts: 18

I would like to talk about the emotional dualism or dichotomy presented in the course. [fear vs love]
This is going to be long i "fear" because this is such a huge topic. But i "love" hearing myself talk so here i go. please forgive.
Fear doesn't seem quite the opposite of love. fear seems like the opposite of courage. or possibly fear is the opposite of hope. i don't know.
anyway what we are talking about here are emotions.
In all religions that have a mystical tradition you find emotions as a conduit to bring holiness into the world.
Many mystical traditions call these emotional conduits "chakras" or whatever they are called in the particular tradition.
Judaism calls chakras "sphirot" and in the bible the "flow" of emotions is represented by rivers. waters above flowing through streams down mountains etc. great floods with rainbows afterwards. the rainbow collors of couse being chakras.
In all these mystical traditions it seems chakras can be open or blocked. some peoples chakras get so crusted over they never feel these emotions and live their lives in a very non elevated way.
All mystics speak the same language and practice the same thing no matter what tradition.
In the west we say each person has a "soul" which is the template for their highest most connected self.
Emotions are your soul talking to you and trying to let higher realities shine through to earth.
Now it's hard to say there are no disconnected and inappropriate emotions. Even love can become disconnected and have its dark sick disconnected side.
Chakras when they are closed can cause unhealthy or inappropriate emotions. Emotions not connected and not coming from higher realities.
You soul on the other hand is trying to sing through the worldly chatter. trying to encompass the world in love. and trying to speak to you about the fear of having a child's life ruined from bad parenting. emotions are your soul trying to get your attention and trying to bring you to who you should be. your perfect template. who you really are and should be in the world.
Imagine a world where everyone had the emotional "great flood" of their emotions opened and acted accordingly. heaven on earth.
often in the new age movement and "the course" in particular it seems we are encouraged to have our physical minds as in our thoughts ride ruffshod like a slavemaster over our emotions.
The course seems to be saying if we have "good thoughts" or the right thoughts about how reality is an illusion then our emotions will follow and we will feel love instead of fear.
The entire power of positive thinking movement is based on this principle. Think positive happy thoughts and  your emotional state will be positive and happy as a result.
thoughts controll emotions.
But is this the right thing to do ? should we try to controll our emotions with our thoughts ?
Obviously if i just decide to think you i am a very spiritual person i will feel better about myself but the problem seems to be that this "thought" will make me "feel" better even if it's not true.
Then we might develop this nagging "feeling" that we are lying to ourselves about our spiritual state that the true level  of our spiritual awareness might not be as elevated as we are "thinking". But then if we "think" "reality is an illusion" we can controll this nagging feeling and be back to feeling good again. but having really not gotten anywhere interesting.
any feeling that bothers you can be controlled this way.
"Reality is an illusion" is a very powerful thought in this regard. It's a thought that basically takes your inner feelings about the world around you and tells them  to take a hike, who cares.
The idea "reality is an illusion" is whats known as dissociative as in you are going to disassociate yourself with the physical world. It feels great. Things that are not real can't effect me, end of story.
But is that the end of the story ? If your higher self is bothered by something shouldn't you listen to what she is trying to say to you?
Obviously if we have a damaged or hurt ego that is not strong and healthy we can feel allot of negative feelings sometimes  about the simplest things.
These negative feeling can be quite overwhelming and are obviously not our soul self talking to us..
If we were abused a little (or allot) emotionally or physically when we were children than we might have arrested cognitive or emotional development in certain areas and about certain things.
We might have some serious sore spots in our self perception (i know i do).
For instance we might have been told we were too stupid to take care of things properly. (i'm just making up a dumb example right now because i'm too stupid to think of a good example).
So say in our everyday life we are confronted with something simple like when to change the oil in the car. The most booring mundane thing possible.
Suddenly we have an emotional reaction. The last thing we want to do is feel stupid again like when we were abused as a child.
so we just decide to tell ourself the oil doesn't ever need changing in our car. problem solved. perhaps we get that nagging feeling again that it isn't true so we tell ourselves "reality is an illusion".
After all if we decide we actually create external reality with our thoughts then we create the car in a way where it's oil never needs changing just by thinking that's true.
problem solved, we feel fine AND we never have to actually face the way we were abused emotionally as a child.
If we realize that the idea  "we create external reality with our thoughts" is actually delusions of grandeur. Then again "reality is an illusion" is a fix.
It all makes sense but the question remains. Is This Really Spirituality ? Isn't there something more to spirituality than just manipulation our feelings with our thoughts ? 


can't we really just heal our ego so it dosn't need all this manipulation?
Are thoughts higher than feeling in the way things are? "the course" seems to be saying love is an emotion that is beyond and above our thoughts. but fear is an emotion that should be crushed out of existence by our thoughts.   

The problem with developing this duality of good and bad concerning emotions is a classic one described in Jungian psychology as "the shadow self".

The shadow self becomes the dark, unloved, hidden part of your nature. Your shadow is a conglomeration of the traits and feelings you try to suppress . It consists of parts of your psyche that were damaged or didn't mature and of which you are ashamed like in the stupid car oil example. You have disowned these parts of yourself. Your psyche has built up defense mechanisms to keep you from knowing these aspects of your nature.

But this doesn't mean these traits disappear. When denied, they grow stronger–buried in closets of repression in your subconscious mind. This shadowy side of your nature –usually a form of aggressiveness, meanness, hysteria, or forbidden sexual fascination–hides out just below the surface of your awareness. It acts out when you are off-guard. The more it is denied, the stronger its force. As though in a pressure cooker, your shadow churns with all those pent-up feelings you're denying or are too ashamed to explore in the light of day. The shadows sacred function is to force you to work through your dark side, to face and heal your broken ego, so its energy can be released in appropriate and healthy ways. again feelings and emotions are your soul talking to you and trying to interact with the world to make it a better place. The shadow becomes emotions like fear that are denied and locked in the dungeon. They are going to rattle the cage and make your life a mess.

so if "fear" isn't "bad". but rather there is such a thing a appropriate healthy fear that is transmitted from your highest self through healthy open chakras what would it look like and how is a flood of fear connected to the beautiful flood of  love ?


An example of how "fear" can be appropriate and healthy and connected to love not opposite of love might be:
I love the gulf of mexico and all of the life that lives there. I feel so alive and connected to gods spirit in nature and the amazing mind blowing balance and dance of life that goes on there.
Migratory birds that transverse the entire globe stop there to feel and bask in the beauty.
Therefore because of this deep love for nature. A love that is a vast flood from the highest reaches of my self and it's connection to the great oneness. I should also feel a flood of fear. "afraid" to drill holes for oil extraction in the ocean floor because i am "afraid"
it might mess everything up and the oil might kill all the life in the water and the migratory birds. Thus a flood of healthy fear supports and sustains my flood of love and they exist in balance and harmony.
Obviously the world would be a much better place if there were more of this healthy and appropriate and holy "fear".
An example of how "love" could be inappropriate might be codependency or how i "love" to listen to myself talk. (not a positive trait in the least as you have seen if you read this post)

peace and love and continue trying to find the unity within the real rather than outside of it.

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 04, 2010 - 5:03PM #2
Myownpath
Posts: 949

You have written so much that I do not have time to fully comment on what you have written so I will tackle a little today and maybe if I have time tackle some on another day. Just to let you know I am an agnostic and a little atheistic in my views, I used to study the course and attend Unity, so take what you want from my comments.  I will try to state my comments from the POV of the course. I understand your views, but some of my views are more --- rational for lack of a better word....


Emotions are your soul talking to you and trying to let higher realities shine through to earth.
According to the course and to biology, your emotions come from your physical being - the material body. the course states you need to come from Spirit.emotions are your soul trying to get your attention and trying to bring you to who you should be. your perfect template. who you really are and should be in the world. No it is according to ACIM your spirit trying to get your attention. Your emotions and intellect are not of spirit. often in the new age movement and "the course" in particular it seems we are encouraged to have our physical minds as in our thoughts ride ruffshod like a slavemaster over our emotions. I agree. Wisdom is the marriage between emotions and intellect. Emotions and rational thinking according to the course come from the ego. I have found no one who is fully able to transcend either which makes me question the validity of what is said.But is this the right thing to do ? should we try to controll our emotions with our thoughts ? What makes you think your thoughts are any better?


so we just decide to tell ourself the oil doesn't ever need changing in our car. problem solved. perhaps we get that nagging feeling again that it isn't true so we tell ourselves "reality is an illusion". Can you walk through walls? walk on water? levitate? magical thinking is ridiculous. Except for stories  to date, there are no legitimately documented instances of this occuring. This is true. Check it out. Think about it. The only way your oil gets changed - the easiest way is to have a person do it. Even if you think you manifested someone to change your oil, a person needs to do it. Cure a disease - usually a doctor is involved someone with skilled training. Want to get a job, apply, write your resume etc. Not doing these things requires a lazy mindset and what you will get is random outcome which you may or may not like. 


After all if we decide we actually create external reality with our thoughts then we create the car in a way where it's oil never needs changing just by thinking that's true. Show me documentation of magical thinking come true. There is none. Show me someone who claims magical thinking became reality and I will show you that there is delusional or lack of knowledge in an area.


I did not post here to burst your bubble. Our relationships with others is what is most important. To manifest a car or an oil change really is not of importance when our personal lives are less than ideal. Do you go into a deadly heated tent and ignore the physical symptoms of dizziness and nausea because a guru told you that you are bigger than your physical being?? Some did and now they are dead. Reports show that the spiritual leader was confused and did not know what to do when people were dropping ill. How can you be on the spiritual path if you cannot fully respond to what is happening in this world? Thinking beyond your emotional limitations and fears about how you relate yourslef and others in  this world seem to be more important to me. Putting myself in danger or walking on hot coals is achieving only that particular task. Does it enable me to relate to family members or a difficult co-worker better? No way!



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4 years ago  ::  Jul 15, 2010 - 2:39AM #3
Gary
Posts: 18

I said that the idea your thoughts informed the world around you was a megalomaniacle delusion. So i don't think its possible for someone to say i was promoting magical thinking.


I said concerning magical thinking "Is This Really Spirituality ? Isn't there something more to spirituality than just manipulation our feelings with our thoughts ?
can't we really just heal our ego so it dosn't need all this manipulation?"


 


either you misunderstand or more likely i am a terrible writer and can't make a point.\\


 


you write: "No it is according to ACIM your spirit trying to get your attention. Your emotions and intellect are not of spirit."


 


I have written otherwise about the insistence of the course on constantly invoking this dualistic view where things either are or are not spiritual or material like there is some hard line of dualisim in the universe. in this corner god and against god in this other corner is everything else that is dualistically not god. (as if anything can be not god)


 


It is simply a false dualism. once you get to a certain level of spirituality everything is spirit.


if all is one then you don't get to keep makng eveything two again. one is one where there is no two.


 


you write: "According to the course and to biology, your emotions come from your physical being - the material body."


 


again the duality. in a nondual approach like in for instance tantric buddhasm there are elements of emotion that are neurotic and attached to lower body and coresponding elemental enlightened wisdoms that are a part of the same emotions that come from spirit..


 


traditionally by the way western religion and psychology divides the human into three levels. body (ego) spirit (emotions) soul (superego)


 


I have read no tests or papers in western science that show that an act of consciousness like complex emotions are a function of the action of the body. science thus far has no answer for us to the question of where consciousness (thoughts or emotions) come from as far as i know.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 16, 2010 - 7:22PM #4
Myownpath
Posts: 949

I have read no tests or papers in western science that show that an  act of consciousness like complex emotions are a function of the action  of the body. science thus far has no answer for us to the question of  where consciousness (thoughts or emotions) come from as far as i know.


It is a question of whether or not there is proof that consciousness exists beyond the body/brain.There is none. No one has claimed  the million dollar prize. Our brain is part of our material body.  The brain is material. ACIM considers the brain material and spirit beyond material. There are plenty of studies showing your thoughts, and every other bodily function is controlled by your brain. Take the wrong drug and it will effect your brain. Surgically remove part of your brain and that function is permanently gone. Be anesthetized and you will go to sleep. Your brain is part of your body. The brain is material. All science points to an impermanent brain.


ACIM ultimately is non- dualistic, but it tries to reach that aspiration by teaching how to recognize  the ego/separation/dualism. Interesting huh? I guess it goes to show you that preaching automatically comes from separation/duality.

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 24, 2010 - 1:27AM #5
Gary
Posts: 18

Jul 16, 2010 -- 7:22PM, Myownpath wrote:


I

It is a question of whether or not there is proof that consciousness exists beyond the body/brain.There is none. All science points to an impermanent brain.



science thus far can draw no conclusions either way about consciousness. There is thus far no working theory about how the brain produces consciousness at all. Therefore: In the face of no evidence either way we cannot conclude that science supports either side of this argument. It does not. Yes the brain is obviously impermanent but if consciousness exists external to the brain then that fact is irrelavent. Plants for instance are obviously "aware" or are "conscious" of their environment but yet have no brains at all. This is an obvious basic and undeniable fact. it is generally believed by physicists working on unified field theory that space-time is hyperdimensional, with all but four of the dimensions being invisible.


This theory of multi-dimensionality coresponds almost exactly to theories of reality presented in certain mystical religious traditions including our western mystical tradition from Judaism. In both Judaism and Budhaism the four visible dimensions are known as elements. earth, air, water, fire.


There is an interesting theorist Saul-Paul Sirag from San Francisco who postulates a seven-dimensional reality space as a universal consciousness, and that invidivual consciousnesses tap into this universal consciousness. This implies that the high level of consciousness enjoyed by humans is due to the complex network of connections to this underlying multidimensionality that exists outside of our brains.


This idea coresponds exactly to my own perceptions and travels within this multidimensional universal oneness. This is why we as western humans have a mystical tradition of seven heavens or put differently seven gates to the underworld.  This is a directly percieved reality by many mystics from many different cultures and traditions and from many different time periods. It is percieved directly by many different people simpy because it is true and it is there.


.


 


Jul 16, 2010 -- 7:22PM, Myownpath wrote:


ACIM ultimately is non- dualistic, but it tries to reach that aspiration by teaching how to recognize  the ego/separation/dualism. Interesting huh? I guess it goes to show you that preaching automatically comes from separation/duality.




NO it is not interesting, It is a  limited dualistic perspective falsely proclaiming itself "non-dualistic". Is no more interesting that someone in New Jersey proclaiming themselves to be in Tibet.


Someone who is in New Jersey who thinks they are in Tibet is simply someone who is confused. ACIM is not in any  way ultimately "non-dualistic". As a matter of fact when held up in contrast to true non-dualistic religions  like for instance  Budahism or  mystical forms of Judaism or Islam. Acim is not only dualistic in it's vew of the universe but rather  ACIM is teaching some of the most extreem forms of classic christian dualism ever.


One thing we must contemplate in relation to ACIM is it's redefinition of basic terminology.


When you say that extreem levels of dualism is actually non-dualism you take way the readers ability to think by taking away language itself.  If the authors of ACIM were actually trying to help people understand they would not have garbled the definition of a basic concept like "dualism" and non-dualism" and reversed them.  Unless they themselves  were so confused or unintelegent as to not understand the meaning of the terms.





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4 years ago  ::  Jul 24, 2010 - 7:30AM #6
Myownpath
Posts: 949

 


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 24, 2010 - 7:32AM #7
Myownpath
Posts: 949

Jul 24, 2010 -- 1:27AM, Gary wrote:


Jul 16, 2010 -- 7:22PM, Myownpath wrote:


It is a question of whether or not there is proof that consciousness exists beyond the body/brain.There is none. All science points to an impermanent brain.



science thus far can draw no conclusions either way about consciousness. There is thus far no working theory about how the brain produces consciousness at all. Therefore: In the face of no evidence either way we cannot conclude that science supports either side of this argument. It does not.


Untrue! Good science will never consider and invisible unproven source such as God.It will always side on the material brain and never God. We may not understand the beginnings of consciousness from an evolutionary standpoint, but much is understood about the brain/consciousness. No one has won the million dollar challenge showing consciousness exists beyond the body, but doctors can do plenty to mess with your brain. Take out a section and you are permanently changed, administer certain drugs and you'll be unconscious. Everything scientific points to you die your consciousness dies.


Yes the brain is obviously impermanent but if consciousness exists external to the brain then that fact is irrelavent. Plants for instance are obviously "aware" or are "conscious" of their environment but yet have no brains at all. This is an obvious basic and undeniable fact. it is generally believed by physicists working on unified field theory that space-time is hyperdimensional, with all but four of the dimensions being invisible.


You are projecting human traits onto a plant. Plants are not sensitive to feelings as some would have you say, but they are effected by space, water, air, temperature, wind, etc. They are only effected by elements that you would expect them to be effected by.


This theory of multi-dimensionality coresponds almost exactly to theories of reality presented in certain mystical religious traditions including our western mystical tradition from Judaism. In both Judaism and Budhaism the four visible dimensions are known as elements. earth, air, water, fire.


There is an interesting theorist Saul-Paul Sirag from San Francisco who postulates a seven-dimensional reality space as a universal consciousness, and that invidivual consciousnesses tap into this universal consciousness. This implies that the high level of consciousness enjoyed by humans is due to the complex network of connections to this underlying multidimensionality that exists outside of our brains.


This idea coresponds exactly to my own perceptions and travels within this multidimensional universal oneness. This is why we as western humans have a mystical tradition of seven heavens or put differently seven gates to the underworld.  This is a directly percieved reality by many mystics from many different cultures and traditions and from many different time periods. It is percieved directly by many different people simpy because it is true and it is there.


No proof whatsoever. These are assumptions and not truly theories.


.

Jul 16, 2010 -- 7:22PM, Myownpath wrote:


ACIM ultimately is non- dualistic, but it tries to reach that aspiration by teaching how to recognize  the ego/separation/dualism. Interesting huh? I guess it goes to show you that preaching automatically comes from separation/duality.





NO it is not interesting, It is a  limited dualistic perspective falsely proclaiming itself "non-dualistic". Is no more interesting that someone in New Jersey proclaiming themselves to be in Tibet.


Someone who is in New Jersey who thinks they are in Tibet is simply someone who is confused. ACIM is not in any  way ultimately "non-dualistic". As a matter of fact when held up in contrast to true non-dualistic religions  like for instance  Budahism or  mystical forms of Judaism or Islam. Acim is not only dualistic in it's vew of the universe but rather  ACIM is teaching some of the most extreem forms of classic christian dualism ever.


One thing we must contemplate in relation to ACIM is it's redefinition of basic terminology.


When you say that extreem levels of dualism is actually non-dualism you take way the readers ability to think by taking away language itself.  If the authors of ACIM were actually trying to help people understand they would not have garbled the definition of a basic concept like "dualism" and non-dualism" and reversed them.  Unless they themselves  were so confused or unintelegent as to not understand the meaning of the terms.


ACIM is an untrue book written by Dr. Helen Shucman who was highly trained and experienced in the mental health profession. It attempts to present non-dualism but it seems as if she only knew how to do this from a backward dualistic approach. 


Have you read the book?



 


Since I am not highly knowledgeable of science I decided to post this on the science and religion section to get some feedback. The responses should be interesting.

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 22, 2010 - 11:23PM #8
Gary
Posts: 18

It is of course true that super string theory and other exrapolatons of einstiens theory of special realtivity are just theories. They are based i think on einstiens theory of special relativity and are an attempt to create a comprehensive theory of everything. a unified theory or as we put it in religion a theory of non-dualism. modern physics is way beyond my pay grade but interesting.


 


There are of course many scientific as in empirical studies on plant responses to the external world. The work of Jagdish Chandra Bose comes to mind but i am sure there is much more. As a more interesting study a few nights ago i consumed ayahuasca and i shape shifted for a time into a vine high in the amazon jungle. believe me when i tell you plant have complex consciousness. To think less of them is simply western anthropocentric huberis. This false version of the world you put forward by stating and restating western cartesian dialectics is simply a false eurocentric (white guy) view of the the world as dualistic. It is simply false.


 


my main point is this: Instad of just talking about how we believe in  non-duality lets try actually believing or more specifically percieving the universe in a fully non-dual way. Tibetian budhaism among many other traditions can show us the way to this level of consciousness but before we can get there we must heal our broken egos in order to stop projecting our own false dualistic western version of things onto everything.


This type of projecting instead of percieving is exactly what Tibetian budhaism is referencing when it uses the term "illusion". Try taking yourself out of the equation. no more "me" as an observer. all you are left with is "what really is". When you are no longer projecting your preconceived ideas of a dualistic world onto everything because you are no longer concerned with self referencing and defining everything in terms of "this" and "that". You may sudenly find a universe not quite as neatly packaged as  this that and the other thing.  

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4 years ago  ::  Aug 22, 2010 - 11:40PM #9
Gary
Posts: 18

yes to the extent that i can i have tried to read ACIM.


It is a mixutre of Christian concepts and symbolism and Tebetian Budhist symbols and concepts.


I can't really comment on the Christian aspect of it but the Budhist concepts and very poorly misrepresented.


The book falls into the broader catagory of Nihilism in my opinion. (The physical world is meaningless).


I also understand that people that do not have access to the fist level of consciousness we generally call non-dual have an understandable tendancy to view non-dualism as something far away and unatainable or "mysterious". This is why it is important to try to learn religious concepts from people who themselves have direct access to these higher levels of consciousness and can guide you there properly. The old saying comes to mind about following a blind person into a ditch.


Nihilism is a very dangerous and unhealthy thing and not at all spiritual or a "miracle".


The reason i make these posts is because people at your level are poised to take the next step into a more open minded relationship to the universe. ACIM in my mind represents a close minded or rather small minded trap that catches a very important group of people and prevents their developement. (a proprietary trademarked trap at that).

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4 years ago  ::  Feb 06, 2011 - 9:45PM #10
Karloj
Posts: 3
Love in it's truest sense can have no opposites. Love is all encompassing and all there is. God is love and God is all there is. Fear is a concept belonging to a mind that believes he/she is separate from love/God
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