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Switch to Forum Live View OPPOSERS OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM REFUTED
4 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2010 - 11:01AM #1
rodgertutt
Posts: 844

OPPOSERS OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM REFUTED


If necessary, copy and paste the links into your browser. 


COMMON ARGUMENTS ADDRESSED


Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker


www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html  


and


Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation


www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm   


CONSEQUENSES OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY


www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.h...   


BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED


www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreatening...   


THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM


www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html 


UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY


richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvat... 


RESPONSES TO CURRENT CHAMPIONS OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY 


Don Hewey


gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithout...  


www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyOnAio...


www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTR...  


www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTR...  


www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTR...   


Eric Landstrom


www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom....  


www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom2...  


www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EricLConce...  


www.savior-of-all.com:80/aionian.html  


Matt Slick


www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_do...  


www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Exposing.h...  


scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversali...  


indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06...  


www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704...   


Tom Logan


www.saviourofall.org/opposers/TomLogan1C...   


Hal Lindsey


www.purposeoflife.org.uk/reply.htm 


Dwane


www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EonLimitGo...  


A great fifteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.


J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic.


Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid Biblical perspective.


Highly Recommended!


THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY


www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world...    

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 11:37AM #2
miami-ted
Posts: 981

Good morning Rodger,


I'm not going to bother reading all of your posted sites, but I do have a question if you would care to submit an answer.  Why would all of the first apostles have given their lives for the preaching and teaching of the gospel if it didn't matter?


God bless you.


In Christ, Ted.

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 11:54AM #3
rodgertutt
Posts: 844

But it does matter very much, Ted.


Responses to questions like yours can be read at


Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html


AND


Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm


Also, I think J. Preston Eby addresses your question very well at


GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED


www.godfire.net/eby/godwill3.html

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 12:16PM #4
miami-ted
Posts: 981

Hello again Rodger,


OK I looked at the fewer sites posted in your response, but still failed to find the answer to the question.  Yes, yes, I understand all of the 'good' things that come to us if we lead a 'good' life and that your teacher posits that it is for the very glory of serving a loving God that constrains us to seek after the righteousness that comes from living a life that serves God, but..... But why would so many men give up their lives in a manner of death that anyone would agree is horrific and probably extremely painful and grotesque, if they knew that ultimately there was no eternal difference to be had?


Why would Peter not turn and say, "Listen, I've spent my life, since knowing the Lord, serving and living a life that honors him, but the truth is that we will all be saved, so I'm going to acquiesce to your demands to renounce the gospel that I have so long preached."  He gets to live longer and he doesn't have to watch his wife die before his very eyes.  Paul, similarly, could have renounced the gospel and would have been allowed to live.  Most all of the very first believers who were taught by and lived with the Lord of glory died horrible and ignoble deaths for what?  Why?  For what purpose?


God bless.


In Christ, Ted.


 

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 12:20PM #5
miami-ted
Posts: 981

BTW, you posted '


GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED



I don't find that phrase in any translation of Scripture that I have.  Can you possibly give me directions thereof?


God bless.


In Christ, Ted.

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 12:59PM #6
rodgertutt
Posts: 844

Jun 11, 2010 -- 12:20PM, miami-ted wrote:


GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED
I don't find that phrase in any translation of Scripture that I have.  Can you possibly give me directions thereof?



1Timothy 2:4 "WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED" (KJV)


Please read this article in its entirety, then tell me if you still think the same way.


GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED


www.godfire.net/eby/godwill3.html




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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 4:45PM #7
sincerly
Posts: 4,049

Jun 11, 2010 -- 12:59PM, rodgertutt wrote:


Jun 11, 2010 -- 12:20PM, miami-ted wrote:


 


GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED
I don't find that phrase in any translation of Scripture that I have.  Can you possibly give me directions thereof?



 


1Timothy 2:4 "WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED" (KJV)


 


Please read this article in its entirety, then tell me if you still think the same way.  




Rodger, I'm sure Ted will answer for himself, but I want to Comment here as well. There is more to the verse and context than those eight words.  Here is those first six verses: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.".


That verse or partial of a verse isn't saying that which you and your site would like it to say.  No more so than verses which was quoted to Eve and Jesus at HIS Temptation meant/were true.  Of course, It is GOD'S WLL that all men should be saved. This was evident from the first Slain animal to clothe Adam and Eve. And as we see above, "Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time". It is evident in John 3:16-21


What is being attested to in 1Tim.2:4 is seen in  Isa,55:1-7; Ezek.18:23; Luke14:23; 2Pet.3:9; John 17:3-------ALL have sufficient knowledge of GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION, But only the few will take advantage of those costly provisions-----by their own choice.  GOD isn't mocked. Obey and Live. Death is still the cessation of LIFE/absence of existing.


 

Peace,   Sincerly.      As long as sin is practiced, one will search for a means to validate the continuing therein. ANON

The greatest want of the world is the want of men--men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.---- ANON  (Ellen G. White. 1882)
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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 5:02PM #8
rodgertutt
Posts: 844

THE FALLACY OF "FREE" WILL


home.earthlink.net/~btodd2/freewillnote....


WILL ALL WHO DIE IN ADAM BE MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST?


home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asinadam.html

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 10:11PM #9
miami-ted
Posts: 981

Hey Rodger,


Yes, I briefly read over the full article, but have not found my mind changed.  Peter writes of those who would distort the Scriptures and so I try to be very careful about what will change my mind as regards the word of God.


The word translated as 'will' in the passage in question is not the verb form.  This is where it is good to have several different translations and then to check the greek interlinear.  The word 'will' as you and your teacher are using it is a verb which denotes that something is done.  For example:  "I will meet you at noon for lunch."  or  "You will be going to the party, won't you?" 


Rather the word 'will' as used here is to mean one's desire or purpose.  "It is my will to do what is right."  It is more correctly used as a noun.  It is of the thoughts and disposition of one's mind.  You will find that many of the better translations have rendered this passage with the word 'desire'.  The NAS and the NKJV translates the passage in this way.  The NIV uses the word 'wants'.  The ASV uses a phrase, 'who would have'.


The 'will' of God, when referring to his desire for us, is thwarted all the time.  Adam and Eve chose to move outside of the 'will' of God.  When God created Adam and Eve 6,000 years ago it was his 'will' that they not sin. 


I see by your bio that you have found the right path and are committed to it and so I will leave you with this to consider or not.  Just be very careful because what you teach is a new gospel.  I think it quite obvious that neither the Lord, nor Paul, nor any of the other disciples believed as you and your teacher believe.  The full passage I mentioned above says this:


 


1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying , Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep , all things continue  as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of , that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished : 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store , reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish , but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat , the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up . 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved , what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved , and the elements shall melt with fervent heat ? 13 Nevertheless we , according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest , as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before , beware lest ye also , being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.


Notice please that a fairly forceful warning is given to such people as would distort the meaning and intent of God's word.  Notice that chapter 9 says almost the same thing that your passage in Timothy says, but gives clear intent that it is God's will.  Finally, hopefully you will see in 16 that there is surely some way of destruction and that the believers are again warned not to follow the error of the wicked.


God bless you.


In Christ, Ted.

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4 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2010 - 10:28PM #10
miami-ted
Posts: 981

BTW, one of the small comforts I get in conversing with universalists is that if they're right, then it doesn't matter what I believe or what I teach.  Oh, I may have to do some penance or something and maybe my mansion won't be as big as theirs, but ultimately I will receive the prize of eternal life with God.  On the other hand, if I'm right and there is a way of destruction which will separate many from God eternally, then the universalists will stand in that line of those that Peter speaks of in the aforementioned passage.  They will have distorted the Scriptures which will lead them to eternal destruction.  They will have taught that everyone's going to receive the gift of eternal life, and God, just as He did with the prophets of old, will hold accountable those who misuse the gospel.


Rodger, my faith tells me that the way faith in Christ was first taught and believed in the first century is more true to what God's 'will' is, then the 'new' and 'fashionable' gospels of today.  All throughout the Scriptures, and esp. the NT, we find that as mankind moves further away from the day of Christ's suffering, then the more distortion we find.


Consider this.  Jesus spoke these very words.  Not Paul, not Peter or John.  No, friend, my Lord spoke these very words to assure us that not all would be saved.


  13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat : 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Be very careful what you believe and how carelessly you teach others.


God bless you.


In Christ, Ted.

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