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Switch to Forum Live View Does Allah know everything?
4 years ago  ::  May 16, 2010 - 8:33PM #11
visio
Posts: 3,395

May 15, 2010 -- 10:22PM, anzertree wrote:


May 15, 2010 -- 9:18PM, visio wrote:


May 15, 2010 -- 12:44AM, anzertree wrote:


Tecnically, not all Christians believe  Jesus was God. I'm an ex Jehovah's Witness, and we believed that Jesus  was God's frst creation. Though, they would call Jesus "a God' just not  God almighty. They'd point to various text where angels and even people  where refered to as gods. You could say they believe in the same God you  believe in. They just don't call him Allah. They basically made up some  other name they like better.



 


May 15, 2010 -- 9:18PM, visio wrote:


1.   What was created first - the Light of Jesus, or, the universe of Jesus, or,  the Spirit/mind of Jesus, or, the body of Jesus or the soul of Jesus ?
2.   Are you, now, saying that each of us is a God?


Jehovah's Witnesses don't claim what Jesus, or any of the angels were made from. But according to JW ideology, Jesus was the first thing ever created. Before heaven, before time, before anything else. Then through Jesus everything else was created. This is why Jesus is called God's first born son. But the Bible never says Jesus is God's only son. All his angels are called his sons,  Adam was called God's son, in fact God claims to have man sons.


“Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’ Matthew 5:9


The word "god" can just mean powerful being, or one in possition of power or of authuorty. For example: Moses was called god over Pharaoh.



 


 



Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet --Exodus 7:1





 



May 14, 2010 -- 12:59PM, visio wrote:


Okay, I'm not really sure I understand you. Let's pt the Jesus is God argument aside for now because I've never believed Jesus was God. If if I wanted to believe in the Bible, I definitely wouldn't come to a Trintarian perspective. So let's drop that assumption.



Then, who do you think Jesus was and is and will be?  I am not tryin gto be awkward but to really understand your perspective.   After all you did say you were ex-JW and some amount of conditioning have gone into you.  


Here is my defiitiion of predestination.


  1. The act of God foreordaining all things  gone before and to come.
  2. God knew everything I would do before I was created



Is this an accurate understanding? Do you believe that at the beginning of the universe that God knew everyhting that would happen. For example. When God first started creation, did he know I would be writing this post on this forum at this specific hour before I existed?



May 15, 2010 -- 9:18PM, visio wrote:


To Muslims, ALLAHswt's existence cannot be equated to all His Creation.  His Existence is by Himself and for Himself.  He has no beginning and nor ending.  Predestination doesn't apply to Him.  But He is in control of the sustenance whatever He is creating.  And at every instant a universe is created and uncreated.   For this reason in the Al-Quran it is said that ALLAHswt knows which Boson and which Fermion moves in the solidity of the Universe of Time.


 


---------------------------------------------------------------


 



 ALLAHswt does also give "free will" to the beast.   So what "free will" that you  are talking about?  In Islam we are on guided "free will".    What kind of "free will" people apply when they go to the ballot box?



 


 


 


I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. But you're not really answering my concern. How God exist outside our perceptions doesn't seem relevent to my inqurary. I'm not talking about how predestination applies to God. I'm discussion God's all-knowingness and its effects on free will for us. The question is very simple. Does God know everything yes or no? If the answer is yes, if God knows everything before it happens, how can free will be possible?



 


 




Which answer would you say relevant to your inquiry - the All-Knowingness of God, or, Gods, or, Sons of Gods, or simply the One Almighty God?  It appeared to me that you know something about Almighty God at the same time keep referring to God.   So which God All-Knowingness is relevant.   It's like a Muslim's question is ALLAHswt All-Knowing?  Is Gabriel All-Knowing?  Is Muhammadsaw All-Knowing? Is the SINGLE PERSON (individuated Divine Light) of Muhammadsaw All-Knowing?  For each there is an answer. The title of your post is very specific in mentioning ALLAHswt. It appears that you know what Muslims indicate as ALLAH.  But, surprisingly, in the actual underlying verbages of your enquiries is all about God or Gods or Son/s of God (after subjecting further clarification).  Its very inconsistent, incoherent and confusing.  Sorry if this upsets you.  It appears that you come to look for a response you want to hear.


 

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4 years ago  ::  May 20, 2010 - 6:07AM #12
anzertree
Posts: 992

I assume that Muslims believe Allah to be God almighty. When I say God with a capital letter, I am referring to the most high. Since this is a Muslim forum, I used the name Allah out of respect for your beliefs.


Only one person even attempted to answer my question, though. It seems that practically everything else was counter questions about Jesus, Jehovah's Witnesses, my conditioning, the reasons for me being here, why I chose the title, and so on. My question was pretty straight forward. How can free will exist if God knows everything I will do? 


I am asking this question here, because Islam intrigues me. I wanted to see how Muslims would answer this question, and whether or not their response was any better than any other religion.


And yes, to clarify, I am an ex Jehovah's Witness. As far as the question about who Jesus is according to a religion I no longer believe in, then I will answer it from a JW perspective. Jesus is the king of kings. He was appointed after his resurrection as second in charge only to Jehovah. Jesus will reign for 1000 years after Satan is imprisoned. After that Jesus hands the kingdom over to his father so that God can become all things to all people. What happens after that is unknown.


The all-knowing characteristic is usually only ascribed to God almighty. Even the Bible says that God is all knowing. Most religions claim that he is. The JW's, however, claim that God is all knowing, but that God can also do anything, and so he can choose not to know some stuff if he wants to. They would liken it to reading the end of a good book before you finish the begeinning. Life is like a musical. God likely wants to experience the entire song. It isn't about the final note.


Once again, I appreciate everyone's responces. Take care.

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4 years ago  ::  May 21, 2010 - 10:41AM #13
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

Salam anzertree,


Please do excuse my brother visio for basically bringing up an irrelevent topic here; I can assure you that such responses are not the typical type you will find from muslims; our brother visio however can be an exception though Smile


Peace!


ps: anzertree my dear friend, free-will and predestination is indeed hard to understand, but there is one thing that i'll request you to kindly consider and that is that, with God being infinite and omnipotent and so amazingly and bewlideringly great!, that, woudln't there be at least some things of His laws that will be beyond comprehension for us?, thus what Islam says about predestination is that [apart from understanding it basically] we wont be able to understand it comprehensively and thus should not even attempt to for the comprehensive knolwedge about it is part of the unseen, thus our attitude towards it should be 'we hear and obey oh lord', for rather than God being questioned on the Day of judgement [about why He did what], it is us that will be questioned; here are some creedal points of Islam that sheds light on this issue further: 


 

  • A man's Islam is not secure unless it is based on submission and surrender. Anyone who desires to know things which it is beyond his capacity to know, and whose intellect is not content with surrender, will find that his desire veils him from a pure understanding of Allah's true Unity, clear knowledge and correct belief, and that he veers between disbelief and belief, confirmation and denial and acceptance and rejection. He will be subject to whisperings and find himself confused and full of doubt, being neither an accepting believer nor a denying rejector.  
  • The exact nature of the decree is Allah's secret in His creation, and no angel near the Throne, nor Prophet sent with a message, has been given knowledge of it. Delving into it and reflecting too much about it only leads to destruction and loss, and results in rebelliousness. So be extremely careful about thinking and reflecting on this matter or letting doubts about it assail you, because Allah has kept knowledge of the decree away from human beings, and forbidden them to enquire about it, saying in His Book,  
    `He is not asked about what He does but they are asked'. (al-Anbiya' 21:23) 

    So anyone who asks: `Why did Allah do that?' has gone against a judgement of the Book, and anyone who goes against a judgement of the Book is an unbeliever.  
  • This in sum is what those of Allah's friends with enlightened hearts need to know and constitutes the degree of those firmly endowed with knowledge. For there are two kinds of knowledge: knowledge which is accessible to created beings, and knowledge which is not accessible to created beings. Denying the knowledge which is accessible is disbelief, and claiming the knowledge which is inaccessible is disbelief. Belief can only be firm when accessible knowledge is accepted and inaccessible knowledge is not sought after.  

  • www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/tahawi.htm


    hope this helps


    Salam!

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    4 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2010 - 1:37PM #14
    IDBC
    Posts: 4,561

    Howdy Abduallah


    May 21, 2010 -- 10:41AM, Abdullah. wrote:


    Salam anzertree,


    Please do excuse my brother visio for basically bringing up an irrelevent topic here; I can assure you that such responses are not the typical type you will find from muslims; our brother visio however can be an exception though

    Peace!


    ps: anzertree my dear friend, free-will and predestination is indeed hard to understand, but there is one thing that i'll request you to kindly consider and that is that, with God being infinite and omnipotent and so amazingly and bewlideringly great!, that, woudln't there be at least some things of His laws that will be beyond comprehension for us?,



    I would like to point out that there is a difference between being omnipotent and being omniscience.  Basically one is being able to DO anything and the other is being able to KNOW everything. 


     


     


    May 21, 2010 -- 10:41AM, Abdullah. wrote:

     thus what Islam says about predestination is that [apart from understanding it basically] we wont be able to understand it comprehensively



    Thus what Muslims say about presdestination even apart from understanding it basically depends on the Muslim. 


    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qadr_(doctrine)


    May 21, 2010 -- 10:41AM, Abdullah. wrote:

      and thus should not even attempt to for the comprehensive knolwedge about it is part of the unseen, thus our attitude towards it should be 'we hear and obey oh lord', for rather than God being questioned on the Day of judgement [about why He did what], it is us that will be questioned; here are some creedal points of Islam that sheds light on this issue further: 



    I believe that the idea that you should not attempt to get to get a comprenhensive of knowledge of what is unseen because you cannot understand it completely stifles understanding.  


    May 21, 2010 -- 10:41AM, Abdullah. wrote:

     So anyone who asks: `Why did Allah do that?' has gone against a judgement of the Book, and anyone who goes against a judgement of the Book is an unbeliever.



    Blind Faith. 


    Have A Thinking Day And May Reason Guide You Smile


      

    HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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    4 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2010 - 7:31PM #15
    Amilius1970
    Posts: 45

    Guided Free Will?  That's like putting training wheels on a motorcycle.  No Such Thing.

    May 15, 2010 -- 9:18PM, visio wrote:


    May 15, 2010 -- 12:44AM, anzertree wrote:




    Tecnically, not all Christians believe  Jesus was God. I'm an ex Jehovah's Witness, and we believed that Jesus  was God's frst creation. Though, they would call Jesus "a God' just not  God almighty. They'd point to various text where angels and even people  where refered to as gods. You could say they believe in the same God you  believe in. They just don't call him Allah. They basically made up some  other name they like better.



    1.   What was created first - the Light of Jesus, or, the universe of Jesus, or,  the Spirit/mind of Jesus, or, the body of Jesus or the soul of Jesus ?
    2.   Are you, now, saying that each of us is a God? 


     


    May 14, 2010 -- 12:59PM, visio wrote:


    Okay, I'm not really sure I understand you. Let's pt the Jesus is God argument aside for now because I've never believed Jesus was God. If if I wanted to believe in the Bible, I definitely wouldn't come to a Trintarian perspective. So let's drop that assumption.



    Then, who do you think Jesus was and is and will be?  I am not tryin gto be awkward but to really understand your perspective.   After all you did say you were ex-JW and some amount of conditioning have gone into you.  


    Here is my defiitiion of predestination.


    1. The act of God foreordaining all things  gone before and to come.
    2. God knew everything I would do before I was created



    Is this an accurate understanding? Do you believe that at the beginning of the universe that God knew everyhting that would happen. For example. When God first started creation, did he know I would be writing this post on this forum at this specific hour before I existed?



    To Muslims, ALLAHswt's existence cannot be equated to all His Creation.  His Existence is by Himself and for Himself.  He has no beginning and nor ending.  Predestination doesn't apply to Him.  But He is in control of the sustenance whatever He is creating.  And at every instant a universe is created and uncreated.   For this reason in the Al-Quran it is said that ALLAHswt knows which Boson and which Fermion moves in the solidity of the Universe of Time.


     


    May 14, 2010 -- 10:47PM, Puresoul wrote:


    Allah knows everything.  Allah sees everything.  And Allah hears everything.  BUT Allah did give man "free will". 



    Please refer to the above clarification so I can be sure I understand what you by by "Allah knows everything." Is it limited, or can he choose not to know some things?




     ALLAHswt does also give "free will" to the beast.   So what "free will" that you are talking about?  In Islam we are on guided "free will".   What kind of "free will" people apply when they go to the ballot box?


     


     


     





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    4 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2010 - 9:46AM #16
    Abdullah.
    Posts: 882

    Jun 1, 2010 -- 1:37PM, IDBC wrote:

    May 21, 2010 -- 10:41AM, Abdullah. wrote:

     So anyone who asks: `Why did Allah do that?' has gone against a judgement of the Book, and anyone who goes against a judgement of the Book is an unbeliever.



    Blind Faith. 


     

    Hi IDBC


    i think that will be reffering to an 'unaccepting' sense or in a sense where one says it while knowing the ruling of ALlah on it, but still trying to fathom it's depths comprehensively, i.e attain the knowledge that has been clarified as part of the 'unseen'.


    the 'unaccepting' sense basically means where a person disagrees with ALlah doing something, i.e, he thinks that Allah was wrong to do something   

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