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Switch to Forum Live View Does Allah know everything?
4 years ago  ::  May 14, 2010 - 11:44AM #1
anzertree
Posts: 992

Wow, I can't believe I'm on Belief-net again. Last time I was here seems like another life. My profile here even still says I'm a JW. LOL, wow.


 


Anyway, I'm curious about Islam. Is it true that Muslims believe God knows everything before it happens? In other words: predestination.

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4 years ago  ::  May 14, 2010 - 12:59PM #2
visio
Posts: 3,129

May 14, 2010 -- 11:44AM, anzertree wrote:


Wow, I can't believe I'm on Belief-net again. Last time I was here seems like another life. My profile here even still says I'm a JW. LOL, wow.


 


Anyway, I'm curious about Islam. Is it true that Muslims believe God knows everything before it happens? In other words: predestination.




It's not so much problem about answering your question.   Its just trying to understand whether what you take as description/perspective for God is the same as that of Muslim for their ALLAHswt. By the wording of your question itself, there is already a difference.  Any answer/explanation to be given would only serve to compound the difference more.  Muslim's ALLAHswt knows you before you post the question.  But as a Muslim, I seem to know you after you posted this question.   And that means I am no God.   If, say (from a Christian point of view),  Jesus is God,  then he should know when it will be his second coming, right?  If he knew, then he shoul tell when.  But he didn't tell.   So he didn't know.   So Jesus, the God didn't know his predestination, right?   You can't equate this with Muslim's ALLAH because what is indicated as ALLAH is not the same as what a Christian indicates as Jesus and/or God.   The Source of predestination does not predestinate "ITself" because it is meaningless to "IT".    

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4 years ago  ::  May 14, 2010 - 10:47PM #3
Puresoul
Posts: 43

Allah knows everything.  Allah sees everything.  And Allah hears everything.  BUT Allah did give man "free will".  So, with that in mind, we must always think, say, and do Islamic things that are in accordance with the will of Allah.  That is why when Christians pray, "let Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven", it is basically saying the samething.  We as humans living in this 3 dimensional realm have no way of knowing what Allah has planned for us from one moment to the next.  Allah's will and man's will are two different things.  Predestination and/or predesignation are only simple things that man has no way of figuring out the details of.  THERE IS A DESTINY FOR OUR MINDS.  THERE IS A DESTINY FOR OUR BODIES.  AND THERE IS A DESTINY FOR OUR SOULS.  Destiny is a law, an immutable law, as lasting as that which brought all things into being.  It is expressed in all the varied spheres of Allah's manifestation.

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4 years ago  ::  May 15, 2010 - 12:44AM #4
anzertree
Posts: 992

May 14, 2010 -- 12:59PM, visio wrote:


Muslim's  ALLAHswt knows you before you post the question.  But as a  Muslim, I seem to know you after you posted this question.   And that  means I am no God.   If, say (from a Christian point of view),  Jesus is  God,  then he should know when it will be his second coming, right?  If  he knew, then he shoul tell when.  But he didn't tell.   So he didn't  know. 



Tecnically, not all Christians believe  Jesus was God. I'm an ex Jehovah's Witness, and we believed that Jesus  was God's frst creation. Though, they would call Jesus "a God' just not  God almighty. They'd point to various text where angels and even people  where refered to as gods. You could say they believe in the same God you  believe in. They just don't call him Allah. They basically made up some  other name they like better.


 


May 14, 2010 -- 12:59PM, visio wrote:


So Jesus, the God didn't know his predestination, right?   You can't equate this with Muslim's ALLAH because what is indicated as ALLAH is not the same as what a Christian indicates as Jesus and/or God.   The Source of predestination does not predestinate "ITself" because it is meaningless to "IT".    




Okay, I'm not really sure I understand you. Let's pt the Jesus is God argument aside for now because I've never believed Jesus was God. If if I wanted to believe in the Bible, I definitely wouldn't come to a Trintarian perspective. So let's drop that assumption.


Here is my defiitiion of predestination.


  1. The act of God foreordaining all things  gone before and to come.
  2. God knew everything I would do before I was created



Is this an accurate understanding? Do you believe that at the beginning of the universe that God knew everyhting that would happen. For example. When God first started creation, did he know I would be writing this post on this forum at this specific hour before I existed?

May 14, 2010 -- 10:47PM, Puresoul wrote:


Allah knows everything.  Allah sees everything.  And Allah hears everything.  BUT Allah did give man "free will". 



Please refer to the above clarification so I can be sure I understand what you by by "Allah knows everything." Is it limited, or can he choose not to know some things?

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4 years ago  ::  May 15, 2010 - 9:15AM #5
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

May 14, 2010 -- 11:44AM, anzertree wrote:


Wow, I can't believe I'm on Belief-net again. Last time I was here seems like another life. My profile here even still says I'm a JW. LOL, wow.


 


Anyway, I'm curious about Islam. Is it true that Muslims believe God knows everything before it happens? In other words: predestination.




Hi anzertree, welcome back to beliefnet! Smile


Yes, as said it is indeed true; Allah [swt] is the All-knowing thus He knows everything that has happened and is going to; He even knows what is in our hearts and our thoughts and nothing at all is hidden from Him


predestination has other dimensions too such as everything happening by the will and decree of ALlah too; here is a link where you will find an indepth explanation of it of one of the two foremost imaams in mainstream Islamic theolgy:


community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...


hope this helps 


Peace. 

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4 years ago  ::  May 15, 2010 - 5:13PM #6
anzertree
Posts: 992















If you don't feel like reading this, there's an audio version at the following URL


podcastmachine.com/podcasts/1033/episode...


 


Okay, I think I understand. Here's the problem I see with God being all knowing. If God knows everything before it happens then I do not think free will is possible. Let me explain.


If God knew everything I would do in my life before I was created then I would be incapable of doing anything different from what God foresaw I would do. If, for instance, God said "On Saturday, May15 2010, Joshua will jump up in the air and then proceed to Starbucks for coffee starting at 10:36AM."


If this was true -- If God knew I would do that before I even existed then I would not be able to deviate from that choice. If I did then God would be effectively wrong. Since God cannot be proven wrong, this creates a paradox for free will. If my life was all in God's memory before I existed then free will cannot be true. That would mean God created people knowing he would have to torture most of them. God didn't even have to create us. Before we were created we simply didn't exist. Why would God create humans knowing he would have to torture most of them in hell? It looks like he would have been more merciful had he never bothered, if that was the price of our creation.


Please let me know if I'm mistaken, and please help me understand how you reconcile these issues.


 


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4 years ago  ::  May 15, 2010 - 9:18PM #7
visio
Posts: 3,129

May 15, 2010 -- 12:44AM, anzertree wrote:




Tecnically, not all Christians believe  Jesus was God. I'm an ex Jehovah's Witness, and we believed that Jesus  was God's frst creation. Though, they would call Jesus "a God' just not  God almighty. They'd point to various text where angels and even people  where refered to as gods. You could say they believe in the same God you  believe in. They just don't call him Allah. They basically made up some  other name they like better.



1.   What was created first - the Light of Jesus, or, the universe of Jesus, or,  the Spirit/mind of Jesus, or, the body of Jesus or the soul of Jesus ?
2.   Are you, now, saying that each of us is a God? 

 


May 14, 2010 -- 12:59PM, visio wrote:


Okay, I'm not really sure I understand you. Let's pt the Jesus is God argument aside for now because I've never believed Jesus was God. If if I wanted to believe in the Bible, I definitely wouldn't come to a Trintarian perspective. So let's drop that assumption.



Then, who do you think Jesus was and is and will be?  I am not tryin gto be awkward but to really understand your perspective.   After all you did say you were ex-JW and some amount of conditioning have gone into you.  


Here is my defiitiion of predestination.


  1. The act of God foreordaining all things  gone before and to come.
  2. God knew everything I would do before I was created



Is this an accurate understanding? Do you believe that at the beginning of the universe that God knew everyhting that would happen. For example. When God first started creation, did he know I would be writing this post on this forum at this specific hour before I existed?



To Muslims, ALLAHswt's existence cannot be equated to all His Creation.  His Existence is by Himself and for Himself.  He has no beginning and nor ending.  Predestination doesn't apply to Him.  But He is in control of the sustenance whatever He is creating.  And at every instant a universe is created and uncreated.   For this reason in the Al-Quran it is said that ALLAHswt knows which Boson and which Fermion moves in the solidity of the Universe of Time.


 


May 14, 2010 -- 10:47PM, Puresoul wrote:


Allah knows everything.  Allah sees everything.  And Allah hears everything.  BUT Allah did give man "free will". 



Please refer to the above clarification so I can be sure I understand what you by by "Allah knows everything." Is it limited, or can he choose not to know some things?




 ALLAHswt does also give "free will" to the beast.   So what "free will" that you are talking about?  In Islam we are on guided "free will".   What kind of "free will" people apply when they go to the ballot box?



 


 

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4 years ago  ::  May 15, 2010 - 10:22PM #8
anzertree
Posts: 992

May 15, 2010 -- 9:18PM, visio wrote:


May 15, 2010 -- 12:44AM, anzertree wrote:


Tecnically, not all Christians believe  Jesus was God. I'm an ex Jehovah's Witness, and we believed that Jesus  was God's frst creation. Though, they would call Jesus "a God' just not  God almighty. They'd point to various text where angels and even people  where refered to as gods. You could say they believe in the same God you  believe in. They just don't call him Allah. They basically made up some  other name they like better.



 


May 15, 2010 -- 9:18PM, visio wrote:


1.   What was created first - the Light of Jesus, or, the universe of Jesus, or,  the Spirit/mind of Jesus, or, the body of Jesus or the soul of Jesus ?
2.   Are you, now, saying that each of us is a God?


Jehovah's Witnesses don't claim what Jesus, or any of the angels were made from. But according to JW ideology, Jesus was the first thing ever created. Before heaven, before time, before anything else. Then through Jesus everything else was created. This is why Jesus is called God's first born son. But the Bible never says Jesus is God's only son. All his angels are called his sons,  Adam was called God's son, in fact God claims to have man sons.


“Happy are the peaceable, since they will be called ‘sons of God.’ Matthew 5:9


The word "god" can just mean powerful being, or one in possition of power or of authuorty. For example: Moses was called god over Pharaoh.




Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet --Exodus 7:1





 



May 14, 2010 -- 12:59PM, visio wrote:


Okay, I'm not really sure I understand you. Let's pt the Jesus is God argument aside for now because I've never believed Jesus was God. If if I wanted to believe in the Bible, I definitely wouldn't come to a Trintarian perspective. So let's drop that assumption.



Then, who do you think Jesus was and is and will be?  I am not tryin gto be awkward but to really understand your perspective.   After all you did say you were ex-JW and some amount of conditioning have gone into you.  


Here is my defiitiion of predestination.


  1. The act of God foreordaining all things  gone before and to come.
  2. God knew everything I would do before I was created



Is this an accurate understanding? Do you believe that at the beginning of the universe that God knew everyhting that would happen. For example. When God first started creation, did he know I would be writing this post on this forum at this specific hour before I existed?



May 15, 2010 -- 9:18PM, visio wrote:


To Muslims, ALLAHswt's existence cannot be equated to all His Creation.  His Existence is by Himself and for Himself.  He has no beginning and nor ending.  Predestination doesn't apply to Him.  But He is in control of the sustenance whatever He is creating.  And at every instant a universe is created and uncreated.   For this reason in the Al-Quran it is said that ALLAHswt knows which Boson and which Fermion moves in the solidity of the Universe of Time.


 


---------------------------------------------------------------


 



 ALLAHswt does also give "free will" to the beast.   So what "free will" that you  are talking about?  In Islam we are on guided "free will".    What kind of "free will" people apply when they go to the ballot box?



 


I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. But you're not really answering my concern. How God exist outside our perceptions doesn't seem relevent to my inqurary. I'm not talking about how predestination applies to God. I'm discussion God's all-knowingness and its effects on free will for us. The question is very simple. Does God know everything yes or no? If the answer is yes, if God knows everything before it happens, how can free will be possible?


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4 years ago  ::  May 16, 2010 - 12:24AM #9
Puresoul
Posts: 43

Let's just put it this way;  We as humans have no way of knowing or even explaining all of the details of The Almighty Creator's mind and/or master plan for all of creation.  It's like explaining quantum physics to a baby.  How can we even begin to understand Allah's plan for us all?  We Will All Come To That Knowledge In The End, When We Are All Gathered Together For Judgement...when the veil of between this life and the next has been lifted.

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4 years ago  ::  May 16, 2010 - 7:40AM #10
Abdullah.
Posts: 882

May 15, 2010 -- 5:13PM, anzertree wrote:





If you don't feel like reading this, there's an audio version at the following URL


podcastmachine.com/podcasts/1033/episode...


 


Okay, I think I understand. Here's the problem I see with God being all knowing. If God knows everything before it happens then I do not think free will is possible. Let me explain.


If God knew everything I would do in my life before I was created then I would be incapable of doing anything different from what God foresaw I would do. If, for instance, God said "On Saturday, May15 2010, Joshua will jump up in the air and then proceed to Starbucks for coffee starting at 10:36AM."


If this was true -- If God knew I would do that before I even existed then I would not be able to deviate from that choice. If I did then God would be effectively wrong. Since God cannot be proven wrong, this creates a paradox for free will. If my life was all in God's memory before I existed then free will cannot be true. That would mean God created people knowing he would have to torture most of them. God didn't even have to create us. Before we were created we simply didn't exist. Why would God create humans knowing he would have to torture most of them in hell? It looks like he would have been more merciful had he never bothered, if that was the price of our creation.


Please let me know if I'm mistaken, and please help me understand how you reconcile these issues.


 


save




Hi anzertree,


the way we understand this is that God knowing something thats going to happen dont take free-will away from a person, for example, if a person has a preminition in a dream [and which was confirmed to him by God lets just say for example] that a certain person is going to do something then allthough someone has it in their foreknowledge of what that person is going to do, yet when that person does do it it will be from his free-will;


also we'd say that foreknowledge of something should be no reason not to go ahead with a perfect creation, for allthough the majority of mankind will end up in hell, yet they would do so out of their own wrong doings and on the part of God it will only be an implementation of one of His attributes of justice; also God immense Mercy is applied to this justice, i.e a believer will get a lot less punishment then he really deserves and a desbeliever would have been given untold chances on earth for repentence and only his extreme evil will land him in hell; also the desbeliever in a way will choose himself to go to hell, thus his abode in there for an eternity will be totally in accordance with justice


Many people do find a problem with the aspect of God willing and decreeing all actions of humans; to this we say that as God knew from his eternal knolwedge of how mankind will utilise his free-will, thus God decrees for him to do so as He allready knew, thus once again man himself is at fault here and on the part of God it will only be implementing the perfect attributes of mercy or justice, hence once again this aspect of free-will should be no reason of why a perfect creation should not go ahead


hope this helps


Peace! Smile


ps: Also i'll add to that that with many billions? of people worshipping God out of their own free-will, despite not seeing God [but only seeing His overwhelming signs] and whilst surrounded with all types of temptations, and ending up in the eternal Garden of heaven - albeit many of them spending a purgotory/temporary period in hell before that - and thus being the best of creation, and especially with there being the best of all out of all creation, the prophet muhammad [saw], it makes this creation all worthwhile, despite the majority ending up in hell



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