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Switch to Forum Live View Does a Soul exist after life or not?
4 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2010 - 9:37PM #271
anotherpaul
Posts: 2,702

 


Hi,


 


No problem , Bnet has it's problems.


 


Sep 17, 2010 -- 5:29PM, DNT wrote:


 


Hey anotherpaul


I don’t know what has happened i did give a reply to your post; this is happening to me a lot lately, so i will try again.


 





OK i disagree with your point about where to place the comma, and have never seen any argument that indicates that the comma is in the wrong place. I am in agreement with most scholars that the KJV of the Bible is by far the best in the English language. Now if you look at other translations you will find that they agree with the KJV in where the comma is placed;



 


This is not surprising as they all share a common belief in the Immortality of the Soul and the Tribity. However the numbers are of no real value if the translation either disagees with the grammar,the context or teachings of Scripture. Let's takle a look.


KJV


Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


 


As for your point about Jesus being in hell and hades for three days, this is correct, as you know hell and hades is the grave and his body would have been there for three days his soul was with Abraham.



 


Nope his soul was dead or the Bible is wrong. A well known prophecy of the Messiah's death, that we know appleis to Jesus,  says:


KJV Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Jesus died body and soul as it were. Please provide any verse in Scripture that says ONLY Jesus body died?


Of course then you must provide a verse that shows that ONLY his body needed to die, that "Jesus" the person did not die and did not need to die.


In fact we know "He" was in Hadees/the grave for three days as we are told that:


(Matthew 12:40) 40 For just as Jo´nah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.


Jesus, "the Son of Man", NOT his body, was there for that time period.


WE know this, even though some translations hide it, because Jesus said:


KJV John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


He did not say" body". Even of greater importance is that the word "life" here is the Greek word for "soul"


28987  yuch,, h/j, h` life, soul; a many-sided word with the meaning derived from the context; (1) as the derivative existence of all living creatures, including human beings life-principle, physical life, breath.


Jesus uses the same word here:



KJV Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.


Jesus knew his sould could and would die. Look at the context; it is speaking of his coming DEATH.


Jesus was NOT in paradise that day or the next. He was in the grave as was the man who died next to him. It was not until three days later that Jesus rose from the grave, eliminating either of them bing in paradise prior to that.


I will address the issue of lazarous and the Rich man next.



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4 years ago  ::  Sep 18, 2010 - 9:59PM #272
anotherpaul
Posts: 2,702

Hi,


As for your point about the beggar and the rich man being a parable? Well it could be I personally believe that it was literal but even if it was a parable it should be a warning to every one as parables are talking about truths. OK Abrahams bosom was a place where the souls were waiting in paradise for the time when Heaven was to be open, that happened after three days when Jesus soul was reunited with his body and he was resurrected on the third day, Jesus went to free them from the grave, the place where the rich man was a place of torment and the remain there until the 1000 years are over and then they are resurrected for Judgement.


God Bless You


Denis.  






OK, a couple of things. This was a parable or the Bible is wrong. That being the case a parable is an illustration. What was illustrated?


Who did Lazarus illustrate?


Who did the Rich Man illustrate


It can't be beggars as such were condemned in the law of Moses. It can't be the Rich man just for being rich AND sharing food, even if just scraps, with a beggar. So WHAT/WHO do the represent?


Plus what is "Abraham's bosom"?


This expression is used only once and it is in this account. It can't be heaven as;


(John 3:13) 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.


That eliminates paradise being heaven.


Where, according to Scripture, is "paradise", which is where Jesus told the thief he would be? Is it the same place as many speculate Abraham's bosom is?


Well it is only used in Greek and notice the first use of that word in the Bible (In the Greek of the OT/LXX)


KJV Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.


The word "garden" in Greek is "paradisios" or "paradise". Paradise is ON earth, not in it.


Again we see a future fulfillment, not one of that day and time.


To say that Lazarus was alive in "abraham's bosom", we must have a Scriptural definition of where that is. Can you provide any Scripture that shows where it is as a physical place VS a symbolic or illustrative place.


By the way being in the "bosom" position is always illustrative of a place of favor, not a literal place in every instance, other than when it refers to reclining literally against someone's chest. The verse says "into" not at, so it is illustrative, not literal.

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 19, 2010 - 2:12PM #273
samuelbb7
Posts: 427

In the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus many see this as being true. But to do this they ignore their own teachings.  Many teach the body lies in the grave while the ghost or spirit goes into the afterlife.  In this story the Rich Man asked for Lazarus to put his finger in water. But how can a spirit touch water when he had no body? Then the bodiless spirit is supposed to place the physical water on the immaterial tongue of the bodiless spirit. Now how is this supposed to work.


Now antoherpaul has already pointed out that in the teaching of those who support immortal soul teach JESUS went to hell not paradise.  So this one passage cannot be used to prove a doctrine that finds no foundation in any other passage of scripture.


Doctrine should not be based on one or two questionable passages. But instead be based on the totality of scripture. The Bible teaches that the soul dies and can be killed by GOD. No where is it called immortal an attribute of GOD alone. 


My question is why accept a belief not based on the Bible based on no verses in scripture instead of what the Bible plainly teaches over and over.

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4 years ago  ::  Sep 19, 2010 - 8:42PM #274
anotherpaul
Posts: 2,702

Excellent points.


 


Sep 19, 2010 -- 2:12PM, samuelbb7 wrote:


In the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus many see this as being true. But to do this they ignore their own teachings.  Many teach the body lies in the grave while the ghost or spirit goes into the afterlife.  In this story the Rich Man asked for Lazarus to put his finger in water. But how can a spirit touch water when he had no body? Then the bodiless spirit is supposed to place the physical water on the immaterial tongue of the bodiless spirit. Now how is this supposed to work.


Now antoherpaul has already pointed out that in the teaching of those who support immortal soul teach JESUS went to hell not paradise.  So this one passage cannot be used to prove a doctrine that finds no foundation in any other passage of scripture.


Doctrine should not be based on one or two questionable passages. But instead be based on the totality of scripture. The Bible teaches that the soul dies and can be killed by GOD. No where is it called immortal an attribute of GOD alone. 


My question is why accept a belief not based on the Bible based on no verses in scripture instead of what the Bible plainly teaches over and over.





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4 years ago  ::  Oct 05, 2010 - 4:39AM #275
DNT
Posts: 1,514

Hey anotherpaul and samuelbb7


I am sorry i have not got back to this earlier but i am finding it very hard to post i have tried to post on this a couple of times but it seems if i use quote it does not post.


Any way samuelbb7 you have made a very good point about about the spirit being immaterial and i have asked my pastor about this and a few others and they believe it is a parable, i am sitting on the fence on that point for the moment but for this discussion i will aseum that it is a parable.


That being said there can be no argument to what Jesus ment by this parrable, the lesson was clearly showing that there are only two possible places our souls will go after death, Lazarus went to paradise and the rich man went to a terrible place of torment. Now the place where Lazarus went to paradise not heaven he would not go to heaven until Jesus was resurrected only then would Lazarus go to heaven, the rich man would still be in this terrible place until after the thousand years, he will then be reunited with his body then will follow the devil into the lake of fire for eternity.


OK as was pointed out it is very important that the Bible interprets the Bible also it is very important to understand the context we are reading. The soul can be interpreted many ways, according to the Bible the soul can be a living animal, it can mean emotions,it can be the mind of a man and so on. When Jesus said to the thief next to him he today you will be with me in paradise he meant his soul would be literally be in paradise that day.


Now if you look at this verse in revalations you can see that the one that were beheaded are alive and raining over the earth with Jesus. They were killed yet there souls were worshipping God day and night. 


Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.These are the ones in revalation 7


Rev 7:9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Yes the soul is with out doubt alive after death.


God Bless You


Denis.


 


 

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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3 years ago  ::  Nov 11, 2010 - 8:34PM #276
samuelbb7
Posts: 427

Dear Dennis


In your understanding of the meaning of this Parable you have forgotten the context.  JESUS was speaking to those who believed that being rich showed you were blessed by GOD and being poor showed you were cursed by GOD.  So is the point where a preson ends up or is the point that their theology was wrong.


On the passage in revelation about all the people in heaven you forgot this is after the second coming and all of us have been resurrected with brand new bodies. In fact JESUS stressed over and over that he would come and get us by resurrecting us.  The reason we can hold Palms is that we will have bodies that are immortal and will never get sick not be immaterial ghosts floating around.


Yes souls can be used to refer to animals they can also be used symbolically as sleeping under an altar unless you want to believe that literally some souls are under an altar crying for vengence.  Think about it.

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