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Switch to Forum Live View Does a Soul exist after life or not?
4 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2010 - 10:00PM #1
Erick
Posts: 1,090
I've been reading the NWT since November of 2009. Before November I had little knowledge on what Jehovah witness believe in. One of my coworkers invited me to her kingdom hall. I went because of my curiosity. After the service I spoke to the elder and he ask me how did I get here. I told him I was invited. He and I went to a private room. I was handed some publications. What really got my attention was a publication about "The Soul". My mouth drop as I was hearing the elder read the material. He told me the soul cease to exist once someone dies and he showed me some verse. I composed myself after hearing the claims and asked him some question regarding all aspects of the soul.
Side Note***** These question are for any Jehovah Witness who wish to answer.******

1)We know Moses died as it states in Deu 34:5. Now if he cease to exist  as JW believe it, then are you able to explain Matthew 17:1-4?

The elder couldn't answer the question. So I'm hoping if any JW are able too.

2)Since you say the body is the soul then, in Matthew 10:28, why does it say "...And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy *both* soul and body in Gehenna"? Why does it state the word "both" as to signify soul and body are two different?

Ether couldn't answer.

Then the elder took me to Gen 2:7. I read it to him and it states "And Jehovah God form the man out of the dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul".

I said to the elder "Interesting" So I asked him:
when it says that Jehovah form the man out of the dust, is this part of the verse saying that God mad a body?
There was silence for about 4 seconds then the elder answered yes.
Then after the body was made then it was when God blew into Adam's nose and he became a living soul?
He said yes.
So are you saying that the body was there first with no life then after God blew in the nostrols then are you saying the body became a soul?
He said yes.....


3) Do you realize that you admited the body was there first with no life, which is the first event. Then the living soul was second event, even if it were a split second in between?
He paused.....
Then he said yes...

4) Then how could the body and soul be the same when Jesus made a clear distinction between soul and body in Matthew 10:28 and as if they were two different entities or subjects?


Elder couldn't answer. He said he would get back to me......I haven't heard from him since. I feel he is avoiding me when my question were sincere......Since then I have asked elder after elder and I can't find one to answer my question.....

So now I'm on this site to see if someone could. I know more about JW then I did in November but I am still learning about their ways. I don't mean to be annoying. I'm just asking in my sincerity. Am I wrong to asks these questions?

I still have other questions of the Soul but I will post them later after these question are answered.
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2010 - 9:49AM #2
natureboy_the0
Posts: 1,740

Erick,


Although I am not JW the answer to your question is found in Genesis 2:7, where Adam is said to have been formed.  Man are souls only when they have a mind, body and lifeforce, to discarnate, die physically, one does not have the body therefore the soul is no longer. 


One thing to remember, anything built is only as strong a its foundation, the first 3 chapters of the Bible, read objectively, gives you a complete vision of the whole book.  The rest of it is details of them. 

Are you questioning your beliefs, ask I AM THAT I AM to clarify them!
Elijah Alfred "NatureBoy" Alexander, Jr. presenting SEEDS OF LIFE
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2010 - 10:41AM #3
Eliascomes
Posts: 976

 The soul dwells in our bodies, it's the life (Light) of man. The soul live eternally and can't perish because it's apart of God. Our soul can turn dark by letting dark spirits control it. since a soul can't die, it has two realms(Rest-Homes) which it can dwell for the rest of it life for eternally. Lights dwells among the Light, and Darkness dwells among the Dark.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2010 - 10:58AM #4
Phronesis
Posts: 2,234

Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:00PM, Erick wrote:


After the service I spoke to the elder and he ask me how did I get here. I told him I was invited. He and I went to a private room. I was handed some publications. What really got my attention was a publication about "The Soul". My mouth drop as I was hearing the elder read the material. He told me the soul cease to exist once someone dies and he showed me some verse. I composed myself after hearing the claims and asked him some question regarding all aspects of the soul.



Natureboy is quite correct. Here is a slightly lengthened response:


 I will do my best to answer your questions as you have asked them, relying of course upon the Bible for the answers. First, though, I find it unusual that an elder could not answers these basic truths that most of Jehovah’s Witnesses know the answers to.


Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:00PM, Erick wrote:


1)We know Moses died as it states in Deu 34:5. Now if he cease to exist as JW believe it, then are you able to explain Matthew 17:1-4?


The elder couldn't answer the question. So I'm hoping if any JW are able too.


So you see, Moses and Elijah were not there; it was a vision. Jesus himself said so.


Matthew 17:1-4 says: “Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and John his brother along and brought them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light. And, look! there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, conversing with him. Responsively Peter said to Jesus: ‘Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.’”


The answer to your difficulty lies in verse 9: “And as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying: ‘Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.’” So you see, Moses and Elijah were not there because they were already dead. The Bible tells us that the soul itself dies. (Ezekiel 18:4, 20) Then we see the condition of the dead in Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Psalm 146:4 — unconsciousness. Jesus confirms this in John 11:11—14 when he likens death to sleep.


Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:00PM, Erick wrote:


2)Since you say the body is the soul then, in Matthew 10:28, why does it say "...And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy *both* soul and body in Gehenna"? Why does it state the word "both" as to signify soul and body are two different?


Ether couldn't answer.


 


The Bible was originally written mainly in Hebrew and Greek. When writing about the soul, the Bible writers used the Hebrew word nephesh or the Greek word psykhe. What confuses many people is the way many Bibles translate these. They take the one Hebrew or Greek word, but translate it by several different English words. This one they sometimes translate as soul; but often as creature, life, and so on, so that the reader is not aware that these are really just one word. The KJV renders nepesh as soul 475 times, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, others 47 times. The Greek psyche is rendered soul 58 times, life 40, mind 3, heart 1, heartily 1, others 2 times.


Because the NWT renders these two words consistently as “soul” I am quoting from that, especially since you have one. However, you can also check it out for yourself using Strong’s Concordance, which is not published by Jehovah’s Witnesses, and looking up the different ways the Hebrew word nephesh or the Greek word psykhe are rendered in the KJV, as well as others.


Here are links to the words from Strong’s: Nepesh  &  Psyche


BUT to answer your question regarding Matthew 10:28 note exactly what it says. You have quoted it yourself, so you see that – speaking of those who are to be given eternal life – the soul (along with the body) will be destroyed. We do not fear those who kill the body because Jehovah can and will resurrect those who die faithful. But if we are unfaithful, and give in to fear of man, we may live a little while longer now, but Jehovah can destroy our soul – our life as a person – by not giving us eternal life. This idea is clearly expressed in John 3:16.


The Bible does not teach the body is the soul; it teaches the person is the soul. A good example of that can be found in 1 Peter 3:20 where it says “eight souls” simply meaning “8 people.


It also shows that one’s life as a person is their soul. Exodus 4:19 makes mention of men who were hunting for Moses’ soul. The context shows they were looking to kill him.


Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:00PM, Erick wrote:


Then the elder took me to Gen 2:7. I read it to him and it states "And Jehovah God form the man out of the dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul".

I said to the elder "Interesting" So I asked him: when it says that Jehovah form the man out of the dust, is this part of the verse saying that God mad a body? There was silence for about 4 seconds then the elder answered yes. Then after the body was made then it was when God blew into Adam's nose and he became a living soul? He said yes. So are you saying that the body was there first with no life then after God blew in the nostrols then are you saying the body became a soul? He said yes.....



3) Do you realize that you admited the body was there first with no life, which is the first event. Then the living soul was second event, even if it were a split second in between? He paused..... Then he said yes...



4) Then how could the body and soul be the same when Jesus made a clear distinction between soul and body in Matthew 10:28 and as if they were two different entities or subjects?




Genesis 2:7 — “And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.


You correctly state: “The body was there first with no life, which is the first event. Then the living soul was second event.” Had a doctor been on the scene between the two events, he would have reported that he had seen a dead person, or a dead soul. As explained above, the Bible does not teach that body = soul or soul = body.


After Jehovah breathed the breath of life into Adam, he became a living soul.” So what was he before that? For all practical purposes, he was a dead soul.


The Bible also speaks of dead souls.” (Leviticus 21:11 & others) It also calls various kinds of animals “souls.” (Genesis 1:20, 24 & others)


Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:00PM, Erick wrote:


Elder couldn't answer. He said he would get back to me......I haven't heard from him since. I feel he is avoiding me when my question were sincere......Since then I have asked elder after elder and I can't find one to answer my question.....


 


Curiouser and curiouser!?!?!?

Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:00PM, Erick wrote:



So now I'm on this site to see if someone could. I know more about JW then I did in November but I am still learning about their ways. I don't mean to be annoying. I'm just asking in my sincerity. Am I wrong to asks these questions?




No you are not wrong; in fact you are to be commended for doing what the Beroeans did. (Acts 17:11) Also we are admonished to “make sure of all things.” — 1 Thessalonians 5:21.


I would also urge you to obtain a copy of our publication What Does the Bible Really Teach? It takes you right to your Bible for the answers to many questions.


 


Also for information on ‘soul” and “spirit” you may wish to read this link:


APPENDIX to What Does the Bible Really Teach? SOUL & SPIRIT 

"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen ... ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, that I am God." - Isaiah 43:10, 12, ASV.
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2010 - 11:41AM #5
Erick
Posts: 1,090

Apr 26, 2010 -- 10:58AM, Phronesis wrote:


 


Genesis 2:7 — “And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.


You correctly state: “The body was there first with no life, which is the first event. Then the living soul was second event.” Had a doctor been on the scene between the two events, he would have reported that he had seen a dead person, or a dead soul. As explained above, the Bible does not teach that body = soul or soul = body.


After Jehovah breathed the breath of life into Adam, he became a living soul.” So what was he before that? For all practical purposes, he was a dead soul.


The Bible also speaks of dead souls.” (Leviticus 21:11 & others) It also calls various kinds of animals “souls.” (Genesis 1:20, 24 & others)




 


How can someone be a dead soul if that person hasn't come to life yet? All the dead souls spoken in the bible are all past tense. God made Adams first......it was a hollow shell, so to speak, then the body became a living soul.


Because if you read the definition of the word Dead, concerning humans, in any dictionary then you see it is all past tense. Never the other way around.


Lets take your concept of a body that is a "dead soul". If adam was a dead soul before coming into being a living soul then that would mean he was alive previously to his new body that wasn't alive yet.


 


Question: So are you saying "all" souls can die?


 


 


Concerning soul existance after dead.....1 Samuel 28:3


It states....3 Now Samuel himself had died, and all Israel had proceeded to bewail him and bury him in Ra´mah his own city.


 


so he is dead. He should be unaware after his dead....Samuel is just gone after this point. Then why does this happen?


1 Sam. 28:13-19


13 But the king said to her: “Do not be afraid, but what did you see?” And the woman went on to say to Saul: “A god I saw coming up out of the earth.” 14 At once he said to her: “What is his form?” to which she said: “It is an old man coming up, and he has himself covered with a sleeveless coat.” At that Saul recognized that it was “Samuel,” and he proceeded to bow low with his face to the earth and to prostrate himself.


15 And “Samuel” began to say to Saul: “Why have you disturbed me by having me brought up?” To this Saul said: “I am in very sore straits, as the Phi·lis´tines are fighting against me, and God himself has departed from me and has answered me no more, either by means of the prophets or by dreams; so that I am calling you to let me know what I shall do.”


16 And “Samuel” went on to say: “Why, then, do you inquire of me, when Jehovah himself has departed from you and proves to be your adversary? 17 And Jehovah will do for himself just as he spoke by means of me, and Jehovah will rip the kingdom away from your hand and give it to your fellowman David. 18 As you did not obey the voice of Jehovah, and you did not execute his burning anger against Am´a·lek, that is why this is the thing that Jehovah will certainly do to you this day. 19 And Jehovah will also give Israel with you into the hand of the Phi·lis´tines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Even the camp of Israel Jehovah will give into the hand of the Phi·lis´tines.”


 


So Samuel comes back from the dead and not only does he come back from the dead but he talks to Saul has if he had memories because Samuel saids this "17 And Jehovah will do for himself just as he spoke by means of me, and Jehovah will rip the kingdom away from your hand and give it to your fellowman David." in verse 17.


If Samuel is dead and without conscience, then how is it that he comes back, remembers(memories) about David in verse 17? How does Samuel remember, in verse 18, that Saul didn't obey the voice of Jehovah, before Samuel died? if he soul cease to exist after dead, then how is this possible?


 


P.S.: In Matthew 10:28 is be a vision, but 1 Samuel 28 isn't a vision. It was happening...

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2010 - 12:25PM #6
Eliascomes
Posts: 976

Mark 14:58
"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.' "
John 2:21
But the temple he had spoken of was his body.
Acts 17:24
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.


God came to tear down his children old lifestyle and rebuild his children back up with his lifestyle, so that we can dwell with him or he dwell with us.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2010 - 12:34PM #7
Erick
Posts: 1,090

Apr 26, 2010 -- 12:25PM, Eliascomes wrote:


Mark 14:58
"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.' "
John 2:21
But the temple he had spoken of was his body.
Acts 17:24
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.


God came to tear down his children old lifestyle and rebuild his children back up with his lifestyle, so that we can dwell with him or he dwell with us.




 


Amen to That!!! Jesus did die and came back with the same body, after the cruxifiction. That is the meaning of Resurrection.....


Jehovah Witness don't believe in the Resurrection. JW believe in Reincarnation.....


Ressurection, by definition, has to be within the same body. Reincarnation has to be from one body and raised up in another body...


 


After Jesus becoming Michael the Archangel is not Resurrection but Reincarnation.


Yes this is related but I guess should be in a different thread.

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4 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2010 - 12:36PM #8
natureboy_the0
Posts: 1,740

Sorry I did not read beyone the title of the thread so here are the answers to your numbered questions.


Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:00PM, Erick wrote:

  1)We know Moses died as it states in Deu 34:5. Now if he cease to exist  as JW believe it, then are you able to explain Matthew 17:1-4?  The elder couldn't answer the question. So I'm hoping if any JW are able too.


There are 4 types of deaths, 1) discarnation, 2) not learning because of judging good and evil, 3) to change until one no longer sees the original personality and 4) leave a place without ever returning or being seen.  The fourth death is what happened to Moses, he ascended into the actual promise rather than discarnating as most people call death.  Thereby, he was able to rematerialized on the mountain of transfiguration with Elijah who also ascended into the actual promise. 


Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:00PM, Erick wrote:

2)Since you say the body is the soul then, in Matthew 10:28, why does it say "...And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy *both* soul and body in Gehenna"? Why does it state the word "both" as to signify soul and body are two different?  Ether couldn't answer.  Then the elder took me to Gen 2:7. I read it to him and it states "And Jehovah God form the man out of the dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul".  I said to the elder "Interesting" So I asked him:  when it says that Jehovah form the man out of the dust, is this part of the verse saying that God mad a body?  There was silence for about 4 seconds then the elder answered yes. Then after the body was made then it was when God blew into Adam's nose and he became a living soul? He said yes. So are you saying that the body was there first with no life then after God blew in the nostrols then are you saying the body became a soul? He said yes.....


Matthew 10:28 has to be taken as a parable since it was not time for the actual revelation of life to be known.  That passage has caused many to think the soul is "the breath" breathed into Adam, breath is nothing more than the energy or lifeforce. 


Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:00PM, Erick wrote:

3) Do you realize that you admited the body was there first with no life, which is the first event. Then the living soul was second event, even if it were a split second in between? He paused..... Then he said yes...


It was the union of the mind, body and lifefore or breath which produced a living soul, without either one is not a soul, so when a person is crazy, if there is such thing, they are not a soul.


Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:00PM, Erick wrote:

4) Then how could the body and soul be the same when Jesus made a clear distinction between soul and body in Matthew 10:28 and as if they were two different entities or subjects?    Elder couldn't answer. He said he would get back to me......I haven't heard from him since. I feel he is avoiding me when my question were sincere......Since then I have asked elder after elder and I can't find one to answer my question.....  So now I'm on this site to see if someone could. I know more about JW then I did in November but I am still learning about their ways. I don't mean to be annoying. I'm just asking in my sincerity.


Like I said above, Jesus' words were not intended to reveal the actual truth less he cause the sunset of civilization before the prophesied  time. 


Apr 25, 2010 -- 10:00PM, Erick wrote:

Am I wrong to asks these questions?  I still have other questions of the Soul but I will post them later after these question are answered.


Your questions are valid.  However, Genesis nor most of the Bible are not facts but metaphors for meditation (Isaiah 1:18), as you are doing, which will lead you to understand the whole purpose of existence, once you see the cycle to the Bible. 

Are you questioning your beliefs, ask I AM THAT I AM to clarify them!
Elijah Alfred "NatureBoy" Alexander, Jr. presenting SEEDS OF LIFE
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2010 - 12:40PM #9
Phronesis
Posts: 2,234

Apr 26, 2010 -- 11:41AM, Erick wrote:


How can someone be a dead soul if that person hasn't come to life yet? All the dead souls spoken in the bible are all past tense. God made Adams first......it was a hollow shell, so to speak, then the body became a living soul.


Because if you read the definition of the word Dead, concerning humans, in any dictionary then you see it is all past tense. Never the other way around.


Lets take your concept of a body that is a "dead soul". If adam was a dead soul before coming into being a living soul then that would mean he was alive previously to his new body that wasn't alive yet.




I am sorry; I thought you would understand that I was using that as an illustration. Of course Adam was not a dead soul before he became a living soul. I was saying if a modern doctor came across Adam before he came to life, that is what Adam would look like to him. He had all the properties of a living soul except life itself.


Apr 26, 2010 -- 11:41AM, Erick wrote:

Question: So are you saying "all" souls can die?



No, I am not say that; Jehovah is.


Ezekiel 18:4 - "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." (KJV) Note: We all sin.


The context here is talking about we each pay for our own sins, not those of someone else. But the result is the soul that sins - us - dies. (Romans 6:23)

"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen ... ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, that I am God." - Isaiah 43:10, 12, ASV.
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4 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2010 - 12:44PM #10
Erick
Posts: 1,090

Apr 26, 2010 -- 12:40PM, Phronesis wrote:


Apr 26, 2010 -- 11:41AM, Erick wrote:


How can someone be a dead soul if that person hasn't come to life yet? All the dead souls spoken in the bible are all past tense. God made Adams first......it was a hollow shell, so to speak, then the body became a living soul.


Because if you read the definition of the word Dead, concerning humans, in any dictionary then you see it is all past tense. Never the other way around.


Lets take your concept of a body that is a "dead soul". If adam was a dead soul before coming into being a living soul then that would mean he was alive previously to his new body that wasn't alive yet.




I am sorry; I thought you would understand that I was using that as an illustration. Of course Adam was not a dead soul before he became a living soul. I was saying if a modern doctor came across Adam before he came to life, that is what Adam would look like to him. He had all the properties of a living soul except life itself.


Apr 26, 2010 -- 11:41AM, Erick wrote:

Question: So are you saying "all" souls can die?



No, I am not say that; Jehovah is.


Ezekiel 18:4 - "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." (KJV) Note: We all sin.


The context here is talking about we each pay for our own sins, not those of someone else. But the result is the soul that sins - us - dies. (Romans 6:23)




So just like the elder, are you saying there was a point in time that there is a body by itself?


 


 


So if Jehovah has a Soul then he has a body according to the understanding of Jehovah Witness?

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