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Switch to Forum Live View New Muslim.. Hijab?
8 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2010 - 8:00AM #41
Posts: 882

May 29, 2010 -- 2:51PM, Teed wrote:


My friend Abdullah quotes the following passage from the Koran, and this commentary on that passage:

(1) Surah al-Imran (3:103):

"And hold fast, all of you together, to the rope of Allah and be not divided."

Imam Sayf ad-Din al-Amidi (d. 631/1233; Rahimahullah) said in his al-Ihkam fi usul al-ahkam (The proficiency: on the fundamentals of legal rulings, pg. 295) with regard to the above Qur'anic verse:

"Allah has forbidden separation, and disagreement with consensus (ijma) is separation."

Hence, if Allah has forbidden separation then surely we must all unite on the unanimously accepted aqid'ah of our pious predecessors.

I disagree strongly with this commentary. It is not disagreement with consensus that is separation. Rather it is the attempt to force consensus which creates separation. The rope of Allah unites all Muslims who honor him. For a group of Imams to claim that they alone can decide the correct interpretation of the Koran, and to exclude all Muslims that disagree with their alleged "consensus" is to divide the Islamic community. Look at all of the millions of people that are excluded by this "consensus": The Shiites, The Sufis, The Ahmadis, and any Sunnis that happened to have lost this vote.

Not that a vote was ever taken. Many Muslims on Beliefnet have claimed that Abdullah's reasoning on this point is circular, because anyone who disagrees with the Imams he likes is defined as being outside the consensus. However, let's plead nolo contendere on this point,and temporarily assume that the majority of Imams do agree where he says they agree. Excluding all Muslims who do not accept this consensus still divides the Islamic community, and thus violates the Koranic passage quoted above. There may be other reasons (although I have yet to see any that convinced me) for overtly rejecting the doctrines of these other branches of Islam, rather than politely agreeing to disagree. But preserving the unity of Islam is not one of them, for trying to force this procrustean "consensus" on a billion people, divides the Islamic community, it does not unite it. By all means let us study the writings of the great Islamic scholars, and seriously consider what they have to say. But let us not grant them the authority of prophets.

It is likely that many Muslims do have incorrect interpretations of the Koran. Perhaps some Muslims will be excluded from paradise because of their incorrect interpretations. But surely if the principle of "Let there be no compulsion in religion" applies to non-Muslims, it should be applied within the Muslims community as well. We must restrain and punish those who misinterpret Islam, or any other religion, in ways that make them harm other people. The British rightly banned the ritualistic murders of the Thuggee worshippers of Kali. Muslims must reject those who ignore the Koranic condemnations of suicide and slaughter of innocents. But metaphysical beliefs about the nature of Allah, or personal decisions about marriage, harm no one but the persons who choose to be involved. Allah is just and all-knowing, and surely he will decide what punishment is required, if any.

P.S. I refer to God as "Allah" in this post, because as I understand it, the word simply means "God" in Arabic, and is used by Arabs of all faiths. If any Muslim feels it is inappropriate for a non-Muslim to use the word, I will stop using it.

Hi Teed!

Thank you for a very interesting reply Smile

I think Teed with the perspective your coming from, i.e wanting change, you will allways have problems with aspects of Islam which to the muslims dont facillitate change

Teed my dear Friend, i'd like to invite you to see if you can see Islam through the eyes of Muslims as they see it, i.e, Gods truth with the guidance of attaining or saving oneself from the only two ultimate destinations for mankind; the garden of heaven or Hell-fire respectively; with you being the intellectual person that you are my friend, i'd bring your attention to the scientific miracles in the Quran; see links: , the sheer uncontradictory nature of the comprehensive Quranic text, the consistent message, the perfect guidance [objectively speaking] and the gateway to the oceans of knowledge that the Quran is; together forming many divine signs

Also my dear Friend, here is a post from my archives that i'd like you to consider; inshALlah it shows from a logical point of view of how it makes sense for there to be a divine religion on earth; please ignore any 'patronising' remarks in it, for it was orignally posted for a person who was really lacking in common sense Laughing:

Lets first acknowledge some basic facts:

The amazing and sophisticated creation around us, affirms for us that there indeed is an All-Powerfull Creator.

Mankind have the abilty to do good and evil; we can love one another and live in peace, harmony, security and safety, or we can hate, fight and kill one another, and violate each others rights by stealing, robbing, etc, etc,

Now there has to be a reason why God created us and put us in this earth for surely we have not been created in vain, as it will go against common sense to think that an Allpowerfull God creates something for no purpose.

A bit of common sense will tell us, that since mankind has been equipped with the ability to do good and evil, and since there is all the indications that God, who created such a pleasant earth, that caters to mankinds needs, is Most Mericifull, Kind and Good, then the purpose must be to live good lives, rather than commit evil in the world.

Now what is obviously happening is that a lot of evil is commited in the world, and due to that a lot of people are suffering, and not all of this injustice is rectified on earth, so should we assume that people are going to die and that will be it, and none of the injustices will be done justice to?; can that be possible for a Just and Mercifull God?

Common sense tells us, that God is going to Judge between us, and do justice to all.

Now do we think that God has just created us and put us in this earth to figure out for ourselves, the purpose of life, etc, or will God let us know about it?

Lets examine that question in more depth:

God, being the most Mercifull, will not want suffering for his creation, and it's only common sense to know that, without God letting us know the purpose of life, and that there will be consequences after death, for peoples good and bad actions, then people wont be rightly guided and thus evil will be rampant, resulting in the inevitable suffering of countless people; which in turn shows that for God to keep people in the dark like this [without sending them guidance] will be a 'reckless' thing to do?; also to assume that God will not to send any guidance negates His wisdom too?, for it presupposes that God made this creation for nothing [for people to wallow in darknes and die and thats it!]? and both of these things can never be associated with an All-powerfull, Most Mercifull God; thus it's only common sense to know that He will indeed send us information and guidance, explaining the reason for our creation, and pointing out the right path from the wrong one.

Now if God has sent us this guidance and knowledge, how will He do it?; does the notion that God sent an angel to one of His chosen humans, with this guidance and knowledge really sound too 'out of this world', or is it possible?; given the fact that guidance from God has to reach us in some way, then it is perfectly in accordance with common sense that God may well have sent it via an angel to one of his chosen humans, who then teaches, explains and demonstrates this guidance to us.

And a man, will also be the most suitable choice to receive this guidance, for he can then demonstrate it to us by living/practicing it himself.

There obviously will need to be some verry clear signs that indeed the man who claims to be a Messenger from God, is indeed a Messenger of God, and that he isn't lying, thus it makes perfect sense for God to back up His Messengers with miracles; also, there will be Signs in the guidance itself; The perfection and 'Divine signs' within the revelation will speak for itself, once it is studied with an open, and objective mind.

So now it all comes down to, wether Muhammad [saw] is indeed a true Messenger of God and wether the Quran is indeed a true revelation from God; look into it peeps, the proof is in the pudding!


Now coming from a Muslim perspective Teed, it will be easy to understand how Gods guidance will have a definitive meaning to it; albeit it allowing differences of opinions for flexibility reasons as a Mercy, however the differences too will have a demarcating line whereby the meanings remain within the ambit of a defined guidance

consensus [and what it entails] in this day and age does seem a bit disuniting, but if we go back to the prophet's [saw] era, when all the Sahaba's [companions of the prophet [saw]] were united on certain opinions which are absolutely decicive from the Islamic sources, thus not allowing a difference of opinion on them, and when gradually a few dissenting voices arose, causing division and disunity within the ranks of the muslims, then the disuniting factor of such oppostion becomes more obvious; nowadays there is a lot more dissenting voices, albeit they still remain in the minority, but from the islamic point of view, a few more people going astray dont legitimise something which the Quranic guidance dont legitimise, thus this is basically the position of Islam on it

hope this helps

Peace Smile

ps; thus in a nutshell, Islam maintains peace with all, no matter how astray they may be, but in terms of accepting views as valid, it has to conform to the Islamic guidance!, for islam is not only about world peace, but about eternal salvation too Smile

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8 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2010 - 12:42PM #42
Posts: 5,021

There is no validity in a consensus based on an abrogation created by men in Allah's name.  There is no honor in justifying such reasoning.  There is every reason to speak out against obfuscation in this matter.  

Since it's allowed for convert women already married to a non-Muslim man to stay with him, and that has been well established, it is incorrect to claim that the marriage of a Muslim woman to a non-Muslim man has been deemed haram by Allah.  Clearly, it is not haram from God's perspective, and the determinations of scholars are no substitute for primary sources.

For those who are comfortable answering on the Day of Judgment that you followed the opinions of others in lieu of Allah's mercy, then this consensus is correct for you, and you should defend it.  I can't defend it as Islamic, so I will continue to challenge it in good faith.



Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.

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8 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2010 - 8:22AM #43
Posts: 2

I checked out Peacefulseeker's post because of the topic and was astonished to see it turn into a forum about whether or not she should stay with her husband. For one thing, this was unsolicited advice. I had a similar experience once when I commented on a blog about Muslim fashion and was suddenly being lectured on how I was going to have to divorce my husband. I wrote about my own reaction to that on my own blog and received a thoughtful and enlightening response, Alhamdulillah.

But to get back to Peacefulseeker's original question:

I had the same concerns before I started wearing the hijab. I was afraid that people would react negatively to me, that I would be self-conscious, etc. I am a new convert of nine months and have only been wearing the hijab for a couple of months now, so I thought and prayed about it for awhile before doing it. Like your husband, mine is supportive and actually likes the hijab. So I didn't have to worry about him. But I worried about how my children would react and people at work. (My parents died a few years ago.)

To my surprise, everyone has been supportive. And one of the side benefits is that I am recognized by other Muslims as one of them. I can't tell you how many times I've been greeted with Asalaam Alaikum by total strangers and how wonderful that feels to know that you are part of a universal ummah.

As far as work goes, I informed them first that I was a Muslim--not formally, but gradually, in conversation. Then a few months later, I told my boss that I wanted to start wearing the hijab and asked his permission. Legally, I didn't have to do that--and he acknowledged that--but he said that he appreciated that I asked.

I've found that rather than being a barrier or offputting to people, my wearing the hijab has actually stimulated discussion about Islam. I've been asked when and why I converted, how I feel wearing the hijab, and so on. No one has been hostile. I'm sure I've surprised some people when they first see me in a hijab but the more people are exposed to it, the less they will react with surprise.

To some extent, people will take their cue from you. If you act relaxed and at peace about wearing hijab, and are open and friendly, they will be more likely to treat it as something normal. (Or almost normal!)

One reason that I decided to wear the hijab is because I'm proud to be a Muslim and it is a way of announcing that to people without thrusting it in their faces. I just go about my business and hope that the way I treat people will give them a positive image of Islam.

Don't worry about being a poor representative for Islam. No one is perfect and Muslims should know that better than anyone. We are all a work in progress. As long as you are treating others the way Allah would have you treat them, all the rest of it will come in time. Be patient with yourself. Allah is.

I hope this has been helpful. If you want to ask me anything more about how I deal with being a convert, feel free to contact me through my blog, I, Muslimah, or reply here. I'm certainly not a shining example nor a very experienced one, but maybe you can relate to what I say since you are new, too.

May Allah bless and help you,










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8 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2010 - 8:44AM #44
Posts: 1,430

Peace be upon you Ellen!

I usually check the beliefnet forum when I wake up while I'm having my morning coffee. I wanted to thank you for your post... it was such a nice way to start my day! It was nice and inspiring and I'm sure many people who are thinking about hijab will benefit from it.

May God bless you and your family! All the best, your sister in Islam,


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8 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2010 - 9:08AM #45
Posts: 2

Thank you, sister! Your reply was a good way to start my day, too!



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8 years ago  ::  Jul 08, 2010 - 10:02PM #46
Posts: 6

Thank you everyone for your responses (esp. Miteypen) Smile I appreciate the information I've been given, and its mine to deal with. I admit I drifted away from this thread. I didn't intend to post and run, so my apologies for that.


Have a wonderful day :)

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