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Switch to Forum Live View My Pastor KNOWS better...
8 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 10:24AM #41
Ironhold
Posts: 12,363

How do I find it?


I've been hosting the transcripts in this thread here; they start after the  first page - community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4...


Johan's fanboy thread is here - community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/4..._


Once again, I warn you that unlike CARM you will not have the home-court  advantage and so will actually be required to answer questions.


 

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 11:30AM #42
UwishUwereMe
Posts: 2,352
This has sure taken an interesting direction.  I like it!

I think that the MRM and other "anti-mormon" groups have too much time on their hands to begin with.  There are whole organizations spending MILLIONS of dollars tryingt o "combat" mormonism.  Wow.  that to me is a group that could be doing SO much more to help in the world.  Starving, homeless, struggling people.  If someone wants to tell me I am not Christian or try to define MY PERSONAL relationship with Christ, that's their problem... not mine.
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8 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 4:27PM #43
Lavender
Posts: 1,069

Bill, so then, you think I shouldn't tell them the truth. (This is not rhetorical; I really want an answer.)

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 4:37PM #44
Lavender
Posts: 1,069

Iron, didn't you say this guy was from CARM? I know a bit about the org. Basically, they're whole agenda is to perpetuate the lies of modern Christianity (like the Trinity and the Rapture.) You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. These guys not only have blinders on, they've got a sleeping mask with only pin holes to see out of.

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 7:59PM #45
BillThinks4Himself
Posts: 3,242

Dec 8, 2009 -- 4:27PM, Lavender wrote:


Bill, so then, you think I shouldn't tell them the truth. (This is not rhetorical; I really want an answer.)



I don't know.  It's your call.  If someone sincerely asks me a question, I'll be happy to give them an honest and sincere answer.  If, on the other hand, their approach is just dripping with preloaded condemnation, I'm not as likely to take the bait.  I've seen this before.


Troll asks outrageous question.


Sincere Person attempts a reply.


Troll twists the reply.


Sincere Person attempts to clarify.


Troll twists the clarification.


Sincere Person attempts to state things another way.


Troll launches another attack, usually going back the rhetoric of his first message.


Sincere Person attempts to explain why Troll's whole approach is misguided.


Troll attacks the integrity or intelligence of Sincere Person.


Sincere Person either gives up or makes another attempt to explain.


Troll avoids resolutions, preferring instead to go back to the rhetoric of the original attack.


Rinse, Lather, Repeat.


Try telling this person that the "Jesus and Satan are brothers" claim is a distortion.  Explain that Mormons don't believe in the Trinity.  They believe that God and Jesus are father and son, not Hindu aspects of the same person.  Explain that when Jesus was baptized, he wasn't just throwing his voice: God was in Heaven, blessing the baptism, while the Holy Ghost was descending like a dove.  Explain that when Jesus made distinctions between the effects of blasphemy against different members of the Godhead, he wasn't just engaging in a theological shell game.  Tell him that Mormons take the Gospels at their word, especially when they show Christ praying to God in the Garden of Gethsemane and saying, "Not my will but thine be done."  


If God and Jesus are two persons, there must be an explanation for this relationship.  How did Jesus get to be "the only begotten Son of God?"  And if God raised Jesus from the dead, with a resurrected body of flesh and bones - "for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have" - then what did Jesus become as he "ascended" to God?  What's the metaphorical significance of being raised, not just up from the grave, but up to God, himself?  What does it mean to say that Jesus is "on the right hand of God?"  


Is he like Gilligan, the Skipper's little buddy?  Is he Batman's Robin?  Is he Sancho Panza?  Is he Ed McMahon?  Jesus told his disciples, "He that hath seen me that seen the father."  Many conclude that this is a confession of who Jesus really was: God.  But how does one make this account square with the others?  And if Jesus is just God in human drag, what about Jesus's prayer, just a little later in John, asking that his disciples might be "one, even as thou and I art one."  Absent a blender and a very large container, there's no way that Jesus's disciples could have been "one," at least not in the same way that people are trying to sell the Trinity.


But if Jesus is the image of man as the incomplete version of the Father who, in turn, is the image of what man may become, it's all about stages of existence.  Just as humans evolve from a conceptus to a fetus to an infant to a toddler to a child to a teen to a fully-grown adult, humanity's great arc may be from life as premortal spirits to life as resurrected beings.  


It's within that larger, much more interesting, cosmological framework that Mormons must confront the question of whether Jesus and Satan were ever related.  The Mormon answer is that both souls go back to a pre-existence.  Both were invited to experience the proving ground of life.  One accepted the call.  The other rebelled.  In the process, this latter person was exiled.  He refused to humble himself so he was humbled anyway.  So one would go on to suffer the passion, die and then rise from the grave.  The other would never know what it's like to live, even for a day, the life of a mortal human being.  What's more, he'd never know what it feels like to rise from mortality to put on immortality.


The Mormon view that Jesus and Lucifer are related (or were in the beginning) is wonderfully symbolic.  Lest any of us imagine ourselves to be above temptation, it pays to be mindful that two different seeds may grow in close proximity with one another.  Human beings, in deciding anything important, sometimes have to decide which voice to follow.  It's often not between the thundering, all-powerful, voice of Almighty God and between the cold-hearted snake that's used to symbolize the presence of evil.  Often, good and evil appear before us, practically identical till the harvest.

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 8:43PM #46
Lavender
Posts: 1,069

I understand your point, Bill; but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt (unless it is blaringly obvious they want to bait me."


Yet traditional Christianity buries it's head in the sand because they have no reply; why don't they cut it out of their Bible? And what gives us the right to cling to parts of the Bible while discarding the rest?


And my last reason is sorta selfish. On that great and last day, I do not want people turning to me and asking, "Why didn't you tell me?"

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 9:17PM #47
Ironhold
Posts: 12,363

If the topic is LDSism, I'm there.

As soon as it turns into a "oh yeah,  what about the Trinity," (what have you) I go right back to Mormonism.


 


Actually, the topics being discussed include both Mormons and non-Mormons  expressing their disdain for CARM as an organization; at the moment, Johan is  the only person trying to defend it.


Still feel like coming over?


 

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 9:55PM #48
Ironhold
Posts: 12,363

I'll ignore the ad hom in favor of discussing LDSism's theology.


Just be prepared to actually answer those questions that are asked of you.

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 9:58PM #49
BillThinks4Himself
Posts: 3,242

Dec 8, 2009 -- 8:43PM, Lavender wrote:


I understand your point, Bill; but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt (unless it is blaringly obvious they want to bait me."


Yet traditional Christianity buries it's head in the sand because they have no reply; why don't they cut it out of their Bible? And what gives us the right to cling to parts of the Bible while discarding the rest?


And my last reason is sorta selfish. On that great and last day, I do not want people turning to me and asking, "Why didn't you tell me?"



Your reply reminds me of myself during my first year of practice as a lawyer.  I can remember some fat, middle-aged, lawyer talking about the first rule of law (Get the money up front) and saying, "I don't like working and not getting paid; I'd rather not do the job if I'm not going to get the money."  Still wearing my rose-colored glasses, I thought to myself, "Why not do the job, even if you don't get paid?  At least you're getting experience."  Several thousand files later, I came to the opposite conclusion.  At a certain point, you get tired of falling prey to the same old traps.  As a result, some of those idealistic crusades no longer appeal.  They just look too much like chapters you don't want to repeat any more.


I'm not suggesting anything negative about you.  I'm just saying I've been there, done that, bought the t-shirt - so many times I just don't have the energy to do it again.  I remember the smell of sulfur, and when it floats past my door, I lock it.


But that's me.

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8 years ago  ::  Dec 08, 2009 - 11:00PM #50
Ironhold
Posts: 12,363

Dec 8, 2009 -- 9:55PM, Ironhold wrote:


I'll ignore the ad hom in favor of discussing LDSism's theology.


Just be prepared to actually answer those questions that are asked of you.




Just be prepared to discuss your religion.

Are you trying to turn this into a clash of egos?

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