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Switch to Forum Live View Does Deism Rely Soley on Intellectualism?
5 years ago  ::  Nov 26, 2009 - 6:17AM #1
Idenitycrisis
Posts: 351

Is there any room for faith? Or is it a mere acknowlegement that a designer made all things? And is that sufficent to consider oneself a "deist"?

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5 years ago  ::  Dec 01, 2009 - 10:49PM #2
cclendenen
Posts: 34

We must all bridge the gap between what we believe and what we know with faith. With Deism, you apply reason-based faith, not unquestioning faith. But it is faith, just the same. All of religion (and Atheism) is based on some measure of faith.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2010 - 9:02PM #3
Caspian
Posts: 6

Actually atheism, (*lower case "a") has nothing whatever to do with faith.


Faith's definitions include, a firm belief in something for which there is no proof. A  complete trust. Something that is believed especially with strong conviction.


 


"God" as a noun is irrational. There is no proof that a higher power defined as god in any faith system exists. The god characteristics include anthrophomorphism which describes a higher being possessed of the same personality defects as lowly mortals. (jealous, angry, vindictive, damning, etc...)


Some claim that a "god" designation can describe creative power and energy. However, that in and of itself is already described and often defined within the sciences and has nothing whatsoever to do with religious conviction.


 


Deism simply put is the rational observation that energies exist to manifest the illusion of materialism. Whereas particle Physics for instance says that not only is everything made of energetic atoms which are theoretical because no atom has ever been observed, but are mostly empty space. And as such those atoms in infinite numbers form our material universe or reality as energetic forms which are at their very essence a power that is constantly moving to a rhythm.
These rhythms can be altered, which is what many attribute "creative visualization" to effect.


However, this still is not god. Deism recognizes energetic power as source that is indifferent to the human condition as is, because all things are energy even empathy.


There is no thing codified as "god" of organized religion within Deism.


Atheism originates from the Greek and simply translates as, "no god". Everyone is born atheist because faith in any higher power described as "god" must be learned, or held in faith without any evidence to support that belief.Atheism doesn't hold faith there is no such thing as god. There is no thing that is god ergo it is not faith to realize that.


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2010 - 10:04PM #4
cclendenen
Posts: 34

Jun 13, 2010 -- 9:02PM, Caspian wrote:


Actually atheism, (*lower case "a") has nothing whatever to do with faith.


Faith's definitions include, a firm belief in something for which there is no proof. A  complete trust. Something that is believed especially with strong conviction.



Precisely. Atheists (capitalized because it is proper noun) exhibit a firm belief that there is no God, a position that they can no more prove than a Deist can prove that God does exist. That there is no God is something that you obviously believe with strong conviction. I think that is a perfectly reasonable conclusion for you to reach, even though you cannot prove it. You have examined the evidence critically, and you have concluded that there is no God. That is faith in action, bridging the gap between what you can prove and what you believe.


"God" as a noun is irrational. There is no proof that a higher power defined as god in any faith system exists. The god characteristics include anthrophomorphism which describes a higher being possessed of the same personality defects as lowly mortals. (jealous, angry, vindictive, damning, etc...)



I absolutely agree that there is no proof of the existence of God, not even a Deist God. But you are attacking the Theist God. The Deist God is in no way anthropomorphic. It is the Theist God who exhibits the worst of human traits as you describe. I concur completely that belief in such a God defies reason. I certainly don't believe in some old white-bearded sky god.

Some claim that a "god" designation can describe creative power and energy. However, that in and of itself is already described and often defined within the sciences and has nothing whatsoever to do with religious conviction.



I have no idea what qualities God possesses. I see only the result. I see natural laws and order and complexity, but anything I believe must confirm to the scientific evidence. I must go where the evidence takes me.


Deism simply put is the rational observation that energies exist to manifest the illusion of materialism. Whereas particle Physics for instance says that not only is everything made of energetic atoms which are theoretical because no atom has ever been observed, but are mostly empty space. And as such those atoms in infinite numbers form our material universe or reality as energetic forms which are at their very essence a power that is constantly moving to a rhythm.
These rhythms can be altered, which is what many attribute "creative visualization" to effect.



I have no idea where you found that definition of Deism. It isn't anything like my own definition or the definition of the hundreds of Deists I have read or with whom I have conversed. Still, each Deist is unique, so I guess it is quite possible that some Deist somewhere believes what you describe.


However, this still is not god. Deism recognizes energetic power as source that is indifferent to the human condition as is, because all things are energy even empathy.



OK, I could agree that what you described is not God, but neither is it any form of Deism with which I am familiar.


There is no thing codified as "god" of organized religion within Deism.



Deism is not an organized religion, and the God I believe in does not resemble the God of any organized religion as far as I know. I guess I do not understand your point here.



Atheism originates from the Greek and simply translates as, "no god". Everyone is born atheist because faith in any higher power described as "god" must be learned, or held in faith without any evidence to support that belief.Atheism doesn't hold faith there is no such thing as god. There is no thing that is god ergo it is not faith to realize that.



Actually, we seem to be born predisposed to religious belief. Essentially every culture has developed some form of religion. I certainly agree, however, that people tend to learn their religion from the people who raise them. That tends to not be the case with Deists. We tend to turn away from the unreasonable and towards the reasonable, much like Atheists and other Freethinkers do. We also tend to not brainwash our own children. We raise them to think for themselves, and if they turn out to be Deists, then they do. Mine certainly did not.


For various reasons, often having to do with the order and complexity of the universe, we Deists lean towards reasoned belief in God. Some come to Deism from Atheism. Others abandon Deism and become Atheists. It is really an individual matter, which is exactly like it should be.


A criticism I have of organized religion is that Theists and other believers exhibit unquestioning faith without proof. Unsupported assertions are not convincing arguments. You have offered no proof that God does not exist. You merely make unsupported assertions. There are some strong arguments in support of Atheism. You have not used them. All of these arguments in support of Atheism fall short of proof. That's OK. I do not claim to possess proof that God exists. But neither do I make assertions that I cannot back up. I look at the evidence, and I lean in the direction of belief. I accept the possibility that I may be wrong. Still, if God does exists, that would mean that the universe might very well exist for a reason. There may very well be a purpose to life. Alternatively, if life has no purpose, one could draw the conclusion that life is pointless. That is not the kind of life I choose to live. 


I think you should continue to reach the conclusion that makes the most sense to you. I will do the same. I have no quarrel with your conclusions, but I think your arguments need a bit of work. I encourage you to read and study and continue to make up your own mind.


Peace.


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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2010 - 1:38PM #5
Caspian
Posts: 6

Cool Actually atheist and atheism are not capitalized unless they begin a sentence, because they are not proper nouns.


 


I appreciate your insight in review of my post however I would reiterate that atheism is not a faith. It has been said before that it is not incumbent upon the atheist to prove a negative.i.e. there is no god.(*lower case "g" because the world is polytheistic and "God" is not a name.)


Every religion extant to this day lends their own proof there is no such thing as god simply because their standards and practices are posited upon one simple foundation first and foremost. Faith! Faith by definition precludes fact.


There is no proof that god exists. That the majority of the world's human population subscribe to some sort of belief (not fact) or faith that such a being/entity exists is not proof of it's existence. Rather it is proof of people choosing to set aside the rational mind in order to hold trust in the irrational.That an unseen omnipotent omniscient omnipresent omnigenetic being not only exists but polices their morality and sits in judgement of their behaviors.


It may be said that if the limited mortal consciousness, especially that belonging to those who already accept on faith they are in deficit as natural born sinners, can codify an anthrophomorphic identity as supreme being that that in and of itself is proof that stylized "god" does not exist.The worlds religions example evidence that  being is created in the image and likeness of humans.

"Free Will" is impossible within the dominion of omniscience. There can be no free will when a god punishes transgression or the exercise of one's will contrary to the commandments or admonitions described by said deity.


God does not exist. Man's faith such a being could exist even within the philosophy ascribed to Deism, is not proof a Deific entity exists. It is rather proof that humans can be led to believe something they can imagine to call god, does.


In point of fact I know god does not exist. With respect to this dialog I will say that it is not a matter of stating, I do not believe in god. In order not to believe in god I would have to first find it credible that such an authority exists in the first place in order to choose not to accept it's presence of office as god.


However, I have been asked if I believe in god to which I reply. No! If such a power did exist it is incumbent upon it to believe in me.


 


Live the Peace,


C.


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2010 - 10:00PM #6
cclendenen
Posts: 34

Thanks for the response. We are talking past one another. You frame the argument as "heads I win, tails you lose." You believe that I have to prove God exists, but you do not have to prove God does not. Yours is a circular argument. You attempt to prove that you are correct by asserting that you are correct and denying the validity of other arguments. Logical fallacies do not produce valid arguments.


You keep arguing against Theism. That is not Deism. I have stated my arguments. I stand behind them. Come back with a valid argument, and we can have a conversation.


I would ask one question. What motivates you to come into a Deist discussion forum to proselytize fundamentalist atheism? (your preferred capitalization)

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2010 - 12:10PM #7
Caspian
Posts: 6

Jun 14, 2010 -- 10:00PM, cclendenen wrote:


 What motivates you to come into a Deist discussion forum to proselytize fundamentalist atheism? (your preferred capitalization)



What movtivated my entering into this particular thread, not discussion forum as you will note this is the singular thread that has garnered my attention, is to educate your ignorance after reading your declarative statement regarding atheism.


It never ceases to amaze me but I so very often find it so none the less and especially in forums like this. You proffer your argument as one of authority and then accuse others not in absolute accord or who do not bow to your alleged superior knowledge, of resorting to a circular argument.


It is as absurd a notion to imagine atheism is a faith, as you declare initially and it is that what prompted my response, as it is for those who are just as ignorant on the matter to then also state atheism is a religion. (Because it is a faith).


You have no right to tell me to come back when... This is not your forum, this is not your website. Rather this is the opportunity for you to go public and show what faith in Deism has done to you as a person.
It would appear it has invested you with an extrordinary degree of hubris, arrogance, pride and intollerance for those who do not concur with your declarative statements.


You have a great deal to learn. Perhaps if you stopped holding faith that something your consciousness can imagine qualifies as "god" created you and the whole universe and then turned his back to let you fend for yourself using the tools it invested you with, is the problem. It's tantamount to atheism in that your declarations describe a universe with no god. But that's only because you have faith god exists and then abandons it's creation.


I'll leave you to your faith now. Because the ignorance that imagines it is possible to proseletize atheism declares it is impossible to ever hope to evolve your side of this dialog into something that stays on point. Rather than what you example as that what necessitates defering to your presumptious ego on the matter, so that you need not educate your ignorance but instead defend it as absolute and correct.


 


You are wrong about atheism sir. Lower case "a" is without question and not subject to your discretion. Then again, that's why you're a Prostheletizing Deist with no knowledge whatsoever about atheism, as was in evidence at the very beginning of this thread.


 


Live the Peace,


C.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2010 - 8:22PM #8
cclendenen
Posts: 34

Thank you. Too bad we do not seem to be capable of communicating. Maybe when I mature more I will achieve your level of knowledge and wisdom, and I too will know everything and be right about everything all the time. Hmm! Perhaps you are God! You seem to claim omniscience.


I bow to your superior intellect. Alas, I am no match.


Yours in faith,


Peace. Out.

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