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5 years ago  ::  Oct 03, 2009 - 4:41PM #31
Tenlionz
Posts: 1,790

We do not need Christ or Christians to validate our systems of belief, and we are not interested in mixing them all together like a new age stew. jesus and his bible thumpers can simply piss off. We had another guy, an adopted Hopi NDN or so he said that came here with this NDN prophesy stuff. He left, something your not getting about NDN People sport. Very few trust white preachers and that is exactly what you sound like. Go tell the white Shaman wannabees about this, they will eat this crap up.

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 07, 2009 - 12:22AM #32
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

 "It was also confirmed by an impartial Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, who wrote at the time that Jesus "won over many Jews and many of the Greeks." "


I'm sure most of the NDN people on this thread are aware that this passage in Josephus is now considered to be a later Christian interpolation.  An unauthorized, literallly, ADDITION to Josephus' words.


AS Miles has graciously pointed out, there are 'pre-existing' Jewish prophesies regarding the Jewish Moschiach ben Dovid - and your Jesus did not!!!  fulfil them.  No second coming/chance is mentioned in any of the Jewish prophesies.


Just in case anyone has missed this, I have read through everything you are repeating that this 'Adamson' person is claiming - and I do not see ONE idea or concept which is uniquely Jewish.  So the claim of 'Judaeo'-Christian is also invalid, IMHO (which I daresay is several orders of magnitude better informed than the OP's!)    I can't speak for my cousins the Muslims, but I didn't see anything which impressed me as uniquely 'Islamic', either. 


My conclusion on that issue, is that this is just one more 'wonderbread' Christian trying to pretend that their unique religion is somehow universal.


 


My heart does indeed bleed for my NDN friends after reading this thread:  I know all too well the pain of having one's sacred concepts raped and plundered by consciousless Christians  : ((   I share your anger and frustration at this theft:  it's just one more outrage....maybe it was better in the bad old days when the Christian oppressors didn't deign to learn our languages and our customs?  At least back then, they didn't trespass in that portion of our souls, the most sacred core of what it means to be our respective Peoples....


And I have to ask myself:  If the Christian conquerers' religion is indeed such a One True TRUTH - why are they slinking arond and sniffing about the edges of our Truths? 


Could it be they sense something empty and hollow at the very center of their 'Universal TRUTH'??? 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 08, 2009 - 11:48AM #33
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

Oct 1, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Reformationnow wrote:




Dear Agnostic Spirit, actually, I'm not touting a book, but a comprehensive message on a web site covering all the major issues of the day.


In the article or web page titled Native American Indian Prophecies, the author Joseph J. Adamson equates John Smith, who wrote The Book of Mormon, to Wovoca, the so-called "Indian Messiah" who also claimed Jesus visited him. Adamson debunks the claims made by Wovoca, but doesn't really say much more about John Smith. I don't know how Adamson feels about Smith. I do know, though, that Adamson certainly does not endorse Mormonism. I don't know where you got that idea.


Rnow, I never said Adamson endorsed Mormonism, I'm merely drawing a parallel.


 


Oct 1, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Reformationnow wrote:


Also, Adamson really is not claiming "new prophecies," but fulfillment of existing world prophecies. He does, however, predict how the humble, gentle, peaceful majority of us human beings will inherit the earth. So, in that sense, I suppose it could be considered a prophecy. But that is essentially the fulfillment of all previous genuine prophecies.



If this is what Adamson is saying, how is that any different from Jesus claiming the meek will inherit the earth and why should the First Nations people, who suffered terribly under the iron fist of Christianity, meekly accept this? This isn't new, it isn't original and it certainly doesn't appear to be anything other than an attempt to proselytize. I do wish there were a DEBATE board for Native American and First Nations, where attempts like this would rightfully belong.

Tribalism, ethnocentricism, racism, nationalism, and FEAR is the Mind Killer... >:(

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 08, 2009 - 11:58AM #34
Agnosticspirit
Posts: 9,244

Oct 7, 2009 -- 12:22AM, LeahOne wrote:


My conclusion on that issue, is that this is just one more 'wonderbread' Christian trying to pretend that their unique religion is somehow universal.


Leah, nice to see you here! Yep.... Wonderbread.... brought to you from the Archer Daniels Midland Food Corp, General  Mills, and Con-Agra.... The WASP manna to the masses....


Oct 7, 2009 -- 12:22AM, LeahOne wrote:


My heart does indeed bleed for my NDN friends after reading this thread:  I know all too well the pain of having one's sacred concepts raped and plundered by consciousless Christians  : ((   I share your anger and frustration at this theft:  it's just one more outrage....maybe it was better in the bad old days when the Christian oppressors didn't deign to learn our languages and our customs?  At least back then, they didn't trespass in that portion of our souls, the most sacred core of what it means to be our respective Peoples....


And I have to ask myself:  If the Christian conquerers' religion is indeed such a One True TRUTH - why are they slinking arond and sniffing about the edges of our Truths?


Could it be they sense something empty and hollow at the very center of their 'Universal TRUTH'???


 



Hijacking, co-opting, or attempting to ERASE another's beliefs is nothing other than spiritual genocide, Leah..... kinda like all the Christians who claim atheists aren't REALLY atheists, that Jews can't be saved without Jesus, and Muslims who claim everyone was born a Muslim. It's sickening, a denial of the inherent human right for religious freedom and freedom of expression.

Tribalism, ethnocentricism, racism, nationalism, and FEAR is the Mind Killer... >:(

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 08, 2009 - 3:50PM #35
Reformationnow
Posts: 290

Oct 7, 2009 -- 12:22AM, LeahOne wrote:

Quote: "It was also confirmed by an impartial Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, who wrote at the time that Jesus "won over many Jews and many of the Greeks."


I'm sure most of the NDN people on this thread are aware that this passage in Josephus is now considered to be a later Christian interpolation.  An unauthorized, literallly, ADDITION to Josephus' words. AS Miles has graciously pointed out, there are 'pre-existing' Jewish prophesies regarding the Jewish Moschiach ben Dovid - and your Jesus did not!!!  fulfil them.  No second coming/chance is mentioned in any of the Jewish prophesies.


Just in case anyone has missed this, I have read through everything you are repeating that this 'Adamson' person is claiming - and I do not see ONE idea or concept which is uniquely Jewish.  So the claim of 'Judaeo'-Christian is also invalid, IMHO (which I daresay is several orders of magnitude better informed than the OP's!)    I can't speak for my cousins the Muslims, but I didn't see anything which impressed me as uniquely 'Islamic', either. 


My conclusion on that issue, is that this is just one more 'wonderbread' Christian trying to pretend that their unique religion is somehow universal. 


My heart does indeed bleed for my NDN friends after reading this thread:  I know all too well the pain of having one's sacred concepts raped and plundered by consciousless Christians  : (I share your anger and frustration at this theft:  it's just one more outrage....maybe it was better in the bad old days when the Christian oppressors didn't deign to learn our languages and our customs?  At least back then, they didn't trespass in that portion of our souls, the most sacred core of what it means to be our respective Peoples....


And I have to ask myself:  If the Christian conquerers' religion is indeed such a One True TRUTH - why are they slinking arond and sniffing about the edges of our Truths?  Could it be they sense something empty and hollow at the very center of their 'Universal TRUTH'??? 




You obviously did not read enough of the message. He very clearly agrees with you that Jesus did not fulfill most Judaic prophecies as is claimed in the "Christian New Testament" as we know it. He also points out that there is no mention of any so-called "second coming" in Judaic scriptures.


The point is that Jesus did exist, however, and he did fulfill the Judaic prophecies about being born in the line of David, and about "receiving stripes" (being whipped) and being "brought as a lamb to slaughter." But he did not fulfill any of the other Judaic prophecies of the Jewish Mashiach.


You miss his point ENTIRELY. His point is that we must respect all religions as they were originally intended to be, and we must understand how most religions have been distorted by racial or ethnocentic or cultural or nationalistic notions of superiority!


"Dear God in heaven, bless the whole world and every person, every religion, every nation, every race, and every culture, and let no one keep clinging to the misguided notion that theirs is superior to all others." -- the modern son of man


Sadly, I find that some people in this forum are every bit as much racists and bigots as the misguided zealots on the so-called Christian Right. That is REALLY sad and tragic to me.



 


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5 years ago  ::  Oct 08, 2009 - 9:49PM #36
Reformationnow
Posts: 290

Oct 8, 2009 -- 11:48AM, Agnosticspirit wrote:

 

Oct 1, 2009 -- 9:10PM, Reformationnow wrote:

 He really is not claiming "new prophecies," but fulfillment of existing world prophecies. He does, however, predict how the humble, gentle, peaceful majority of us human beings will inherit the earth. So, in that sense, I suppose it could be considered a prophecy. But that is essentially the fulfillment of all previous genuine prophecies.



If this is what he is saying, how is that any different from Jesus claiming the meek will inherit the earth and why should the First Nations people, who suffered terribly under the iron fist of Christianity, meekly accept this? This isn't new, it isn't original and it certainly doesn't appear to be anything other than an attempt to proselytize. I do wish there were a DEBATE board for Native American and First Nations, where attempts like this would rightfully belong.




If you read the article I cited, you will see that his point is that all prophecies of the world, including Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Islamic and Native American prophecies speak of the end of the passing age and the begginning of a new age of peace and harmony, when the humble, gentle, peaceful, and yes, "meek" people of the world shall inherit the earth, make peace, and establish justice for all peoples.


The modern son of man is on YOUR side AGAINST military imperialsts on the Christian Right, and points out the error of the false doctrine of preeminence and superiority that justified the "Christian" popes, emperors, kings, prime ministers and presidents who screwed over the Native Americans and lots of other indiginous peoples all over the world.


It's frustrating for me to keep having to refute the accusations of critics who haven't bothered to read the message. Adamson is NOT proselytizing or pushing ANY religion. He's advocating religious PLURALISM and EQUALITY.


I sense that there is a knee-jerk reaction to any mention of Jesus here, due to the bigotry of of the so-called Christian Right. But the modern son of man is just as against them as you are!

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 08, 2009 - 10:39PM #37
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

"The point is that Jesus DID exist, however, and he did fulfill the Judaic prophecies about being born in the line of David, and about "receiving stripes" (being whipped) and being "brought as a lamb to slaughter." But he DID NOT fulfill any of the other Judaic prophecies of the Jewish Mashiach."


Those are NOT!!!!!!! Jewish prophesies of the MbD.  First off, if Jesus' father was YHVH - no 'House of David' there.  The tribal descent is through the MALE line ONLY:  the geneaology traced through Mary is irrelevant.


Second, the 'suffering servant' passages of Isaiah DO NOT REFER to Jesus:  the 'suffering Servant' is Israel/the Jewish People.  And that is NOT truly a 'messianic' prophesy.  Jewish prophets are not given to 'foretelling', but to 'telling forth' (the will of YHVH to the ruler and/or people of Israel).


Thanks for proving my point that most Christians don't even know what the actual Jewish prophesies about MbD are. (Hint:  It's NOT! all that stuff the Christians are forever spouting to 'prove' to me their Jesus is my MbD)


 

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 08, 2009 - 10:49PM #38
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

"You miss Adamson's point ENTIRELY. His point is that we must respect all religions as they were originally intended to be, and we must understand how most religions have been distorted by racial or ethnocentic or cultural or nationalistic notions of superiority!"


 


MOST  Religions?????   I don't think so.  Wow, and this is supposed to be 'humility' in action??? The only ones I've run across which commit that sin against fellow humans made in the Image of GOD, are >SOME< interpretations of Christianity and Islam.  I've enver gotten that kind of 'superiority' notion from ANY other faith. 


In particular, the NA/tribal belief systems I'm aware of have consistently agreed with the POV of my own 12 Tribes' sages:  "Here is the proper way for our people".  I don't know of any other faiths beside Christianity and Islam which make a specific point of stating that other belief systems are 'deficient' (It's actually much worse than that, LOL!).  Certainly my own doesn't.


NO.  I don't think anyone here missed the 'point':  I think none of us are the ones who needed to hear that message.


As for us 'bigots' here - I think it's more that we've known so much of the Christian Conquest, that we're really cynical about such 'peace-loving ' overtures.  You want to 'make nice' to us "monirity types"?  GOOD:  here's a hint!


 LEAVE US ALONE.  DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT US.  AND DON'T TRY TO BE OUR PALS.


Just because some of 'your kind' - after nearly two millennia of abusing others! - suddenly decide to 'make nice', that doesn't mean we are over the trauma of those 'relationships' you
FORCED on us.


It's going to take a heck of a lot more than mere words....  You go and make some real changes in how you behave, and then maybe some of us will be willing to talk.

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 08, 2009 - 11:22PM #39
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

OK, I read it.  He thinks he's a prophet.  While not exactly saying so, he thinks he's Eliyahu, if not the MbD...


Oh, and he's also telling quite a few whoppers about my faith and my people.  Any actual prophet would at least know the facts.  So no, he's just another ill-informed blowhard Christian who thinks he's on to something......


 

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5 years ago  ::  Oct 09, 2009 - 12:32PM #40
Reformationnow
Posts: 290

Oct 8, 2009 -- 10:39PM, LeahOne wrote:

Quote: "The point is that Jesus DID exist, however, and he did fulfill the Judaic prophecies about being born in the line of David, and about "receiving stripes" (being whipped) and being "brought as a lamb to slaughter." But he DID NOT fulfill any of the other Judaic prophecies of the Jewish Mashiach." Those are NOT!!!!!!! Jewish prophesies of the MbD.  First off, if Jesus' father was YHVH - no 'House of David' there.  The tribal descent is through the MALE line ONLY:  the geneaology traced through Mary is irrelevant. Second, the 'suffering servant' passages of Isaiah DO NOT REFER to Jesus:  the 'suffering Servant' is Israel/the Jewish People.  And that is NOT truly a 'messianic' prophesy.  Jewish prophets are not given to 'foretelling', but to 'telling forth' (the will of YHVH to the ruler and/or people of Israel). Thanks for proving my point that most Christians don't even know what the actual Jewish prophesies about MbD are. (Hint:  It's NOT! all that stuff the Christians are forever spouting to 'prove' to me their Jesus is my MbD) 




Once again your unwillingness to read the message causes you to fail to understand it.


The modern son of man shows how Jesus was not born of a virgin. Joseph was his father, and Joseph was born in the line of David. Adamson shows how the reference in the book of Matthew to Isaiah 7:14 about "Immanuel being born of a virgin" is not accurate or appropriate, so it was either not actually written by its original author but was added later, or the author of those words now in the book of Matthew was simply in error about that prophecy of Isaiah, which was actually not about a virgin and was fulfilled long before Jesus was even born.


The modern son of man shows how Jesus did not sacrifice his life to "take away the sins of the world," as many Christians claim. In fact, the claim that he did was based on erroneous interpretation and misunderstanding of Judaic Hebrew Scriptures. They do not speak of any son of man dying for our salvation, just as they do not speak of any son of man coming, then going and coming again. And the martyrdom of Jesus was to set an example as a loving, compassionate, tolerant, forgiving pacifist.


Furthermore, Jesus did fulfill a couple of the prophecies of Isaiah about being whipped (receiving stripes) and being "brought as a lamb to slaughter." But, Isaiah's prophies speak mostly of the modern son of man, the servant of God.


The book of Isaiah speaks of the witnesses of God, and of a singular chosen servant of God, one who is called "son of man."And even though Isaiah speaks of the "servant Israel" in certain instances in a plural sense, meaning the people of Israel, Isaiah also speaks of the servant Israel in a singular sense, meaning the servant who "brings Jacob again" in spirit, and also symbolically represents the "sceptre of Judah," "a rod out of the stem of Jesse," and a "righteous branch from David."



That is why Jesus himself said the one who would fulfill both the Judaic and Christian prophecies would glorify God the Holy One in heaven, and would also glorify the Christ-Avatar-Ancient One who is with God in heaven. And Adamson shows how Isaiah and Jesus both spoke of the modern son of man, who is first rejected by his generation and first suffers many things, and who often feels that his work is in vain and for nought because most people reject it.



Why do they reject it? Because most people dismiss him as a deluded fool with a messianic complex, or reject him as a heretic or worse. And that's because he comes NOT to fulfill the expectations of men who think their religion or race or nation or culture is superior to all others. He comes to fulfill the will God who knows we are all ONE.

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