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Switch to Forum Live View Where is the great crowd? HEAVEN VS EARTH
5 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2009 - 12:20PM #1
Angoradrengen
Posts: 128

Where are the great crowd?


 


Revelation 19:1


"After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven."


 


= Heaven.


 


Revelation 7:9


("After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."


 


The throne is in heaven


 


= Heaven


(rev 7:9 "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.")


 


Rvelation 7: 15


 


And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,  "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.


 


Again, before the throne


 


= Heaven


 


I have always been taught, that they are in heaven, and that there are TWO different groups. But the great and the little crowd, seems to have many things in common. I have found a list to show the similarities, but can't find it now.


 


Why do JW's believe that the great crowd are on earth, when scriptures above shows otherwise? =)


 


Agape


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2009 - 4:22PM #2
in(con)sistent
Posts: 1,230

Some scriptures to think about.


(Revelation 7:15) That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.


(Revelation 21:3-4) . . . With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”


(Psalm 99:5) . . .Exalt Jehovah our God and bow down yourselves at his footstool. . .


(Isaiah 66:1) . . .This is what Jehovah has said: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. . .

Who was Jesus? http://www.watchtower.org/e/200612/article_01.htm
Who is Jesus? http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050915/article_01.htm
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2009 - 5:23AM #3
Angoradrengen
Posts: 128

Thank you, Inconsistent. I will take your reply into consideration.


 


To all: Take a look at this thread.


 


www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-wi...


 


Is there some valid points, that the great crowd is in heaven? (There are some apostates in there)


 


In christ

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2009 - 12:38AM #4
anotherpaul
Posts: 2,702

Here is some information from a reply I gave about this preiously.


 


You asked: Where is the second group according to Rev 7:9?


Lets look at it.


(Revelation 7:9-10) 9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.



OK, where is before the throne?


Note a following verse;


(Revelation 7:15) 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.



Lets look first at “day and night”



This would likely indicate on earth as John later points out about New Jerusalem which originates in heaven:



(Revelation 21:25) 25 And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there.



Day and night are earthly phenomenon, not heavenly.


As further support we can also look at:


the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.


This also is explained in revelation 21:


(Revelation 21:3-4) 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”


We know from the context that this is on earth.


So far this appears to indicate, using scripture in context and from the book of revelation, that the ones spoken of are on earth.



However one part of Rev 7 is sometimes appealed to as indicative of a heavenly site.


15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple;





Some claim that they must be in heaven because that is where God’s is as the earthly temple was destroyed. Is that a correct assumption. Well aside from the problems with day and night, lets look at the idea of a temple in heaven.





First there is NO literal temple there. Note again in Revelation.



(Revelation 21:22) 22 And I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is].




OK again within context there is No temple in Heaven. How then can a temple exist on earth.


Two points help understand that this is symbolic of an earthly situation.




(1 Corinthians 3:16-17) 16 Do YOU not know that YOU people are God’s temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU? 17 If anyone destroys the  of , God will destroy him; for the  is holy, which [temple] YOU people are.




From this we can see that all Christians on earth make up the . Our life should be one of worship. In addition the waving of palm branches is a sign that they accept and rejoice in God’s rulership. Note that the rulership or kingdom also is to be on earth.




(Matthew 6:10) 10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.




You may be familiar with the KJV translation of this:




“They Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”.




A final line of evidence is supplied by Paul.


 


(Hebrews 9:2-3) 2 For there was constructed a first tent [compartment] in which were the lampstand and also the table and the display of the loaves; and it is called “the .” 3 But behind the second curtain was the tent [compartment] called “the Most Holy.”




OK, Paul tells us that when Jesus died and was resurrected he went through the curtain and was then in the presence of God, in heaven.




(Hebrews 6:19-20) 19 This [hope] we have as an anchor for the soul, both sure and firm, and it enters in within the curtain, 20 where a forerunner has entered in our behalf, Jesus, who has become a high priest according to the manner of Mel·chiz´e·dek forever.




(Hebrews 4:14) 14 Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him].





(Hebrews 9:6-7) 6 After these things had been constructed this way, the priests enter the first tent [compartment] at all times to perform the sacred services; 7 but into the second [compartment] the high priest alone enters once a year, not without blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of ignorance of the people.




(Hebrews 9:11-14) 11 However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, 12 he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us]. 13 For if the blood of goats and of bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who have been defiled sanctifies to the extent of cleanness of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to [the] living God?




Thus the Most Holy is in heaven before God where Jesus now is.




How about Christian’s on earth?




(Hebrews 10:19-20) 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh,





Christians are NOW in that “holy place” which according to scripture was outside of the Most Holy and thus on earth. The is figurative and extends from heaven to earth.


 


They can't be in heaven becuase there is no temple in Heaven


However as pointed "out" the wording "come out of" first means it goes THROUGH what which it comes out of. Example:


(Matthew 15:18) 18 However, the things proceeding out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those things defile a man.


First goes through the mouth.


(Mark 5:7-8) . . .” 8 For he had been telling it: “Come out of the man. . .


It had to be IN the man to come out.


(Luke 5:17) 17 In the course of one of the days he was teaching, and Pharisees and teachers of the law who had come out of every village of Gal´i·lee and Ju·de´a and Jerusalem were sitting there; and Jehovah’s power was there for him to do healing.


They had to be IN the village etc to come out.


(John 4:47) 47 When this man heard that Jesus had come out of Ju·de´a into Gal´i·lee, . . .


He had to be In Judea first.


IN other words the ones in Rev 7"9 go THROUGH the Great Tribulation and come OUT of it into the millennial Kingdom ON earth.


They do not leave the earth and that is not implied in the verse. It has been misused by many to say that. But it doesn't. It says they, in effect go through the Gt and come out the OTHER SIDE of it. Ni thought of leaving earth to go to heaven can be supported by the context.


I will post some versions that say this.


BBE Revelation 7:14 And I said to him, My lord, you have knowledge. And he said to me, These are they who came through the great testing, and their robes have been washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb.


NAB Revelation 7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you are the one who knows." He said to me, "These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; (1 )they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


NJB Revelation 7:14 I answered him, 'You can tell me, sir.' Then he said, 'These are the people who have been through the great trial; they have washed their robes white again in the blood of the Lamb.


 


As to being before the throne.


 


Consider this:


"Jehovah is in his holy temple; Jehovah, his throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men." --- Psalms 11:4, AS.


Obviously, then, we don't need to be in heaven for God to get a good look at us.


And the Greek word here translated "before" [ e no' pi on ] literally means "in [ the ] sight of"


and is used several times of humans on earth who are "before" or "in the sight of" Jehovah. { 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:14; Romans 14:22; Galatians 1:20. }


(Genesis 13:10) 10 So Lot raised his eyes and saw the whole District of the Jordan, that all of it was a well-watered region before Jehovah . . .


(Genesis 24:25-26) 25 And she said further to him: “There is both straw and much fodder with us, also a place to spend the night.” 26 And the man proceeded to bow down and prostrate himself before Jehovah


 



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5 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2009 - 7:53PM #5
humbly.search.for.truth
Posts: 326

Angoradrengen:


It is important to look at the Bible from a non-biased standpoint.  Although this is really impossible to be totally 100% unbiased because we already have an opinion or desire to believe one way or the other based on many factors.  Still, most people will cling to one belief that they are taught all of their life and look for reasons to justify their beliefs.  Most people today in the world feel that everyone goes to heaven.  Try to put away the mental filter away as much as possible and study the evidence with an open and honest mind and humble heart.


We tend to read material as it is.  As you might know from reading the Bible, this doesn’t always lead to an accurate understanding.  The language is different than our modern-day English.  When we hear words such as “standing before” and “in the sight of” we tend to take it as it is--literally.  Revelation especially is a book of symbolism and not always to be taken literally.  Therefore, we need to consult the rest of the scriptures to help.


 


“Standing before” 


The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of the one in whose presence the individual or group stands.


Here are a couple of occurrences:


(Rev 6:15-17)15 And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”


(Luke 1:19)36 Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that YOU may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man.”


Other examples: Prov 2:29; Ps 1:5; Ps 5:5




“In the sight of” 


We do not have to physically be in heaven to be “in the sight” of God, do we?  We can render sacred service without being in heaven. 


The Greek word “e·no´pi·on” here translated “before” literally means “in the sight of.”  It is used also when referring to humans on earth. 


(Romans 14:22) 22 The faith that you have, have it in accord with yourself in the sight of God. Happy is the man that does not put himself on judgment by what he approves.


(Galatians 1:20) 20 Now as to the things I am writing YOU, look! in the sight of God, I am not lying.


 


Many people today like to complicate the truth.  The real truth is that Jehovah created this earth for perfect people to live on.  That was and is his purpose for humans.  To settle for anything else is to allow Satan to thwart Jehovah's purpose, and then that wouldn't make Jehovah almighty, now, would it?  Here are some simple scriptures I am sure you know relating to God's purpose for mankind. 


 


 


(Isaiah 45:18) 18 For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited. . .


 


(Ps 37:9,10) 9 For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. 10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;


 


(Ps 37:29) 29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.




And then finally...



(Daniel 2:44) 44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;


We are certainly looking forward to God's Kingdom to strike the feet of the image and become a great mountain and "fill the whole earth."!


 


 


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2009 - 9:28AM #6
Goodtobehomestill
Posts: 6,583

(Revelation 21:3-4) . . . With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."


Humbly, those were all such good points.   This that 'inconsistent' shared speaks to me on the subject, as 'tears, death and mourning' can't pass away from heaven, they have never been present in heaven.  They can only pass away from our Earthly realm.

“People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them.”
― Epictetus

Life is like photography, you need a clear lens, and the picture you get depends on what you focus on.


Anger stems from irrational beliefs about others, anxiety stems from irrational beliefs about yourself.---Spencer Lord, The Brain Mechanic
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5 years ago  ::  Jul 19, 2009 - 6:56PM #7
juliannaP
Posts: 817

And the fact that Rev. 21 says that God will be with mankind (as you pointed out by bolding the 'man' in the scripture above).  Some bibles actually use the word "humankind" there.  It is pretty obvious by that that it is speaking about on the earth by using those words.


(Revelation 21:3-4) With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.  And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."


julianna

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2009 - 5:13PM #8
Matt.acosta
Posts: 101

Thanks everyone who posted and contributed so far.  


This heaven business is one issue I have not reconciled in my mind in the past.  I was raised in a religious household for the most part, although it wasn't quite apparent that they were christians when the services was over and Monday rolled around.  That is another story.  


Ever since I was young I always wondered why God would just have everyone go to heaven.  It seemed to me like God gave up on death and just faced reality with himself and let Satan win.  I believe that we were originally intended to live not just less than a century, suffer, and then die.  That isn't the picture painted in Genesis, especially when those in the beginning lived for almost a 1,000 years!  People in my church (the different ones I have attended) seem to just roll over and accept death and everyone goes to heaven.  They just listen to their pastor/preacher tell them and explain the scriptures to them. They just seem to blindly accept what they are told and how it is explained.  Hard for me to accept.  If that is how it is, I would accept it, but that isn't what I gather from reading the Genesis account and other scriptures. I really don't have any desire to go to heaven, and most people don't really know what they would do there except "be with Jesus" (whatever that means to them).  


I am not a JW and I hope no one minds if I post here.  I realize this is designed to be a forum for the JW faith.  The JW beliefs are different in a lot of ways, and that intrigues me.  History has shone to me that religion hasn't done much uniting in the world.  In fact, it seems it has done a lot of damage in a lot of ways. I am a type of individual who investigates thoroughly before making any judgements or decisions (drives my wife and others crazy at times).  I also prefer to hear information directly from the source rather than second and thirdhand information, which can quickly become distorted. I really wish more JWs would post here.  What I really would like is someone to take a topic and explain why they hold the belief that they believe.  A person can read many many books in this world, but there is just something special about a personal testimony as to one's beliefs.  


Thanks again for everyone who posts here. 

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2009 - 11:02PM #9
Newtonian
Posts: 12,187

Jul 20, 2009 -- 5:13PM, Matt.acosta wrote:


Thanks everyone who posted and contributed so far.  


This heaven business is one issue I have not reconciled in my mind in the past.  I was raised in a religious household for the most part, although it wasn't quite apparent that they were christians when the services was over and Monday rolled around.  That is another story.  


Ever since I was young I always wondered why God would just have everyone go to heaven.  It seemed to me like God gave up on death and just faced reality with himself and let Satan win.  I believe that we were originally intended to live not just less than a century, suffer, and then die.  That isn't the picture painted in Genesis, especially when those in the beginning lived for almost a 1,000 years!  People in my church (the different ones I have attended) seem to just roll over and accept death and everyone goes to heaven.  They just listen to their pastor/preacher tell them and explain the scriptures to them. They just seem to blindly accept what they are told and how it is explained.  Hard for me to accept.  If that is how it is, I would accept it, but that isn't what I gather from reading the Genesis account and other scriptures. I really don't have any desire to go to heaven, and most people don't really know what they would do there except "be with Jesus" (whatever that means to them).  


I am not a JW and I hope no one minds if I post here.  I realize this is designed to be a forum for the JW faith.  The JW beliefs are different in a lot of ways, and that intrigues me.  History has shone to me that religion hasn't done much uniting in the world.  In fact, it seems it has done a lot of damage in a lot of ways. I am a type of individual who investigates thoroughly before making any judgements or decisions (drives my wife and others crazy at times).  I also prefer to hear information directly from the source rather than second and thirdhand information, which can quickly become distorted. I really wish more JWs would post here.  What I really would like is someone to take a topic and explain why they hold the belief that they believe.  A person can read many many books in this world, but there is just something special about a personal testimony as to one's beliefs.  


Thanks again for everyone who posts here. 





Hi Matt!  Well, my wife Mary and I are organic gardeners - we love this earth and consider it a gift of love from our Creator, Jehovah.  It especially encourages me when I read God's original purpose - which He had not given up on.   btw - you are correct - God has not given up and Satan has not won.


This part for example:


(Genesis 1:28) 28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth."


Can you imagine when we have all of the animals in loving subjection!  Just think how much better it will be when insects are all in harmony with each other and us - can you imagine, for example, directing Ants to aerate the soil!  I tried this once - fed ants sugar and the one ant hill turned into hundreds - all within a month! 


Of course, we love this Scripture:


(Isaiah 11:6-9) . . .And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.

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5 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2009 - 11:25PM #10
Newtonian
Posts: 12,187

Angora - In post 1 you referred to Revelation 19:1 - a great crowd in heaven.  I was thinking - there really is a great crowd in heaven!  Myriads of angels - in fact, heavenly Jerusalem:


(Hebrews 12:22-24) . . .But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abel's [blood].


Balancing that out, though, is the fact that the angels applauded the creation of this beautiful earth!:


(Job 38:4-7) 4 Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell [me], if you do know understanding.  5 Who set its measurements, in case you know, Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line?  6 Into what have its socket pedestals been sunk down, Or who laid its cornerstone,  7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?


So it makes sense that Jehovah has not changed his original purpose and intends for this earth to be inhabited by mankind in a paradise forever:


(Isaiah 45:18) . . .For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.


So, while those who are in heaven are, of course, a great crowd - they are not the great crowd of Revelation 7:9


Other posters have keyed in on Revelation 21 - the New Heavens and the New Earth.  I find, among the other points others have posted, that the similarity in the wording I'm highlighting in blue is indicating mankind, not those of the heavenly calling with spiritual bodies, are the ones who are being described as having the tears wiped from their eyes, to wit:


(Revelation 7:13-17) . . .And in response one of the elders said to me: "These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?" 14 So right away I said to him: "My lord, you are the one that knows." And he said to me: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes."


(Revelation 21:3-4) . . .With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."


Death, of course, was never in heaven.  It also reminds me of this promise of Jehovah:


(Isaiah 25:8-9) 8 He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it]. 9 And in that day one will certainly say: "Look! This is our God. We have hoped in him, and he will save us. This is Jehovah. We have hoped in him. Let us be joyful and rejoice in the salvation by him."


Certainly this is good news for all mankind - if only they would listen!

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