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Switch to Forum Live View Some questions about the trinity and Jesus
5 years ago  ::  Apr 03, 2009 - 3:23PM #1
Angoradrengen
Posts: 128

Hi.


Just found some scriptures I am pondering over.


 


"You destroyed this body (temple), and I will raise it up"



How can Jesus raise himself up, If he is not god?


 


John 20:28


Thomas was falling down before Jesus and calling him my lord and my god and worshipp him, and Jesus said: Blessed are you


 


How come Jesus said it was okay, if he is not God? How come Thomas fell down and worshippet Jesus if it was not okay?


 


The questions are from here


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH0wNvZh1q4&feature=related


The second part are here, but haven't listened to it


 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xo6FH9tTt4&feature=related


 


Not apostate material.


 


 


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2009 - 1:31AM #2
Jason75
Posts: 96

Hi Angoradrengen.


 It is good to make your faith more sure by studying deep into God's Word. These scriptures are some of the common ones often debated. I have a few minutes so I will address one of your questions.


 Let me begin by quoting one scholar's comment regarding these types of verses.


"But we shall find that on almost every occasion in the New Testament on which Jesus seems to be called God there is a problem either with textual criticism or of translation. In almost every case we have to discuss which of the two readings is to be accepted or which of two possible translations is to be accepted." - Jesus as They Saw Him, pg. 21, William Barclay.


In this post I address John 20:28.


First of all Angoradrengen, please note that nowhere in the text does it state that Thomas bowed down and worshiped Jesus. Please review John 20:28 and its context from the NASB:


17Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" 18Mary Magdalene came, announcing to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord," and that He had said these things to her. 19So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." 24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." 26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 27Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."  30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;  31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.


You said: "Thomas was falling down before Jesus and calling him my lord and my god and worshipp him, and Jesus said: Blessed are you


And then you asked: "How come Jesus said it was okay, if he is not God? How come Thomas fell down and worshippet Jesus if it was not okay?"


1.     Thomas did not fall down and worship Jesus.


2.     Jesus did not refer to Thomas as 'blessed'(This line of reasoning may being used here by your source to infer that Thomas is blessed because he recognized Jesus as God) But if you carefully note in vs. 29 Jesus states..."Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." Thomas previously denied Jesus' resurrection because he had not see the risen Jesus with his own eyes. It took sticking his fingers 'in the holes' to lead him to believe. Jesus is not calling Thomas blessed- but it is those who had faith that did not require 'physical proof' that are blessed.


Look at the context of John's narrative here. This outburst by Thomas is sandwiched in between Jesus saying "my God and your God", (Jesus here has a God) and John stating the purpose for his gospel, namely, "that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." The context teaches us that Jesus has a God and he is the Christ - Son of God. How does Thomas' exclamation fit here? Well, at this time, without going into technical language , (please ask if you want to do so) let me quote an early Christian writer who shares our view of what was behind Thomas' outburst.


Theodore of Mopsuestia living from 350 to 428. He wrote concerning this verse:


"He says to Thomas: Put your finger in here, and look at my hands, and stretch out your hand, and put it into my side, and don't be incredulous, but steadfast [in your faith].  He [Jesus]  says:  Because you do not believe, and you think that touch alone will suffice for you to believe-even saying things of this nature-?  I have not been unknown to you?-touch with your hand and make the experiment, and learn to believe and not to mistrust.  Thomas, indeed, when thus he had believed, says 'My Lord and my God.'  [Thomas] is not saying [Jesus] himself is Lord and God, for knowledge of the resurrection was not also teaching that God was he who rose again, but as it were, he [Thomas] praises God greatly for the miracle performed." - Patrolpgoe. Patrp;pgoe Graecae, Thomus LXVI, Synesius Epics, Theodorus Mopsuestenus, p 783, 784.


This is the short answer.


Agape,


Jason

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2009 - 1:11AM #3
anotherpaul
Posts: 2,702

Apr 3, 2009 -- 3:23PM, Angoradrengen wrote:


 


 


John 20:28


Thomas was falling down before Jesus and calling him my lord and my god and worshipp him, and Jesus said: Blessed are you


 


How come Jesus said it was okay, if he is not God? How come Thomas fell down and worshippet Jesus if it was not okay?


 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xo6FH9tTt4&feature=related


 




 


Hi,


 


An example of the problem is found above.


 


Where in the account does it say athat he; "fell down and worshipped him"?


It doesn't. That is a dishonest addition to create a thought not found in the verse at all.


 


Why would they do that?

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2009 - 9:12AM #4
Cashue
Posts: 6

Hi there,


Here is an interesting essay on John 2: 19 that answers your question.*


jehovah.to/exe/general/john219.htm


Hope it helps,


Cashue


 


* not sure why my reply is at the top of the page (it was meant in reply to the question at the very bottom)

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5 years ago  ::  Apr 29, 2009 - 12:04PM #5
marken
Posts: 3,701

Some  excellent  examples  here  as  to how  our  minds  can  be  so  easily misled.   Even    a  question  that  does  not  actually  incorporate  the  information  under  review,  can  put  false  ideas  in  our  heads.  


Satan  is  a  master  at  controlling  our  minds,  2  Cor.  4:4,  so  we  have  to  put up  a  constant  fight  against  him  as  long  as  Jehovah  allows  wickedness  to  continue.  


Once  our  minds  understand  that  the  english  word 'god'  can  be  used  both  as  a  noun  and  a  title,  it  is  all  so  easy  to  understand.    None  of  Jehovah's  creations  or  those  created  by  Satan  or  our  own  minds  are  ever  given  the title  of  ALMIGHTY GOD  in  the  scriptures.  That  is  entirely  reserved  for  Jehovah. 


Jesus  is  given  the  title  of  Mighty  God,  among  many others,  because  of  the  authority  given  to  him  at  his  resurrection  by  Jehovah.  Just  as  he  became  mankind's  Eternal  Father  by  his  buying  back  what  Adam  lost,  he  also  became  a  Mighty God.  Is 9:6  There  is  no  salvation  in  any  other  man.   He  is  the one  appointed  by  Jehovah  and  we  must  accept  him  as  our  Lord  and  King.  (more  titles)


with  affection  from  Marken

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