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Locked: Isaiah prophecy of the Jewish Messiah
2 years ago  ::  Feb 05, 2011 - 2:20PM #21
BDboy
BDboy
Posts: 3,369

Feb 2, 2011 -- 8:17PM, LeahOne wrote:

BDBoy, it's really quite simple.  The NT is not part of the Torah, the revelation to teh hildren of Israel at Sinai.

What Eliyahu has stated about the rules of tribal inheritance within the Children of Israel is quite true:  it is through the father's line ONLY, and ONLY the undoubted biological father (Israelites didn't recognize 'adoption' as did the Romans).





Albeit NT is not part of the OT AKA Torah, the family line of Jesus was explained in the NT. It makes sense. No one can describe Jesus before Jesus!!

Jews do recognige family from mother's side [ I was told few times]. Mary the mother of Jesus without a doubt was a Jew. Jesus himself kept Sabath and only preached to Jews during his lifetime. I can look up the Bible and give you more detailed answers, if you care for it.

Feb 2, 2011 -- 8:17PM, LeahOne wrote:



So, if Jesus is the 'begotten' son of YHVH, Jesus *cannot* be from the tribe of Judah.  And descent through Mary does not count.  There are other details as well.




>>>>>>>> ALL tribes belong to God!!

You are just looking for excuses to discount "Jewishness" of Jesus son of Mary. My little research does not agree with you.

Because according to Jewish scriptures Jesus was undoubtebly a Jew. No doubt about it.

I looked up Wiki to be sure. It asked


Who is a Jew?


It says...

According to halakha, the oldest normative definition used by Jews for self-identification, a person is matrillineally a Jew by birth, or becomes one through conversion to Judaism...



Then I also looked up more and found the following.


The Mishnah (kiddushin 3:12) states that, to be a Jew, one must be either the child of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism, (ger tzedek, "righteous convert"). The Talmud (Kiddushin 68b) derives this law from the Torah, specifically Deuteronomy 7:3-4: "Thy daughter thou shalt not give to his son, nor shalt thou take his daughter to thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods." This rule was clearly accepted by the 2nd century CE, with virtually no debate over it appearing in the Talmud. Orthodox opinion regards this rule as dating from receipt of the Torah at Mount Sinai, but most non-Orthodox scholars regard it as originating either at the time of Ezra (4th Century BCE) or during the period of Roman rule in the 1st-2nd centuries CE.

[ Source: Wikipedia--Matrilineality in Judaism ]


Feb 2, 2011 -- 8:17PM, LeahOne wrote:



You yourself do not hold the NT above your own Qu'ran:  why then would you ever think the Jews hold the NT above our Torah?


I have not speken about the Qur'an here. Just sticking with OT and NT. I am NOT asking Jews to "Hold" NT over OT. However NT gives details about Jesus which is very relevant to this discussion.

Since you have no idea about the Qur'an, I'll rather not get into that. Now it looks like you do not know much about NT or OT either!!

Here is another verse about mission of Jesus son of Mary. According to the Bible Jesus was sent to guide the "Children of Israel".

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
                                              (Matthew, 10:5-6)



Shalom!!

Moderated by Merope on Feb 07, 2011 - 12:19PM
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2011 - 9:56AM #22
LeahOne
LeahOne
Posts: 14,515
BDBoy:  We were discussing Judaism and Jewish definitions of 'who is a Jew' and of 'prophesy'.

Who is a Jew:  The 'Jewishness' comes through the maternal line.  HOWEVER!  The tribal affiliation (we are 13 tribes, yanno!) comes through the FATHER ONLY.

If Joseph is *not* Jesus' biological father ('adoption' was not recognized by the Jewish People) - then Jesus *cannot* be from Joseph's tribe.  It really IS that simple.  According to the rules of Jewish tribal inheritance, Jesus was never qualified to be either king or MbD - IF the genaeologies given in the NT are correct or not,  it STILL doesn't matter.

What either the NT or Qu'ran have to say about Jesus' heritage are not going to affect the Jewish rules of inheritance.  And those *Jewish rules of inheritance* are what have to be followed to determine if a given person meets the parameters for the MbD *as stated in the Torah*

What you are suggesting otherwise, is that somehow the Quran or NT are more authoritative *for Jewish religious elements* than Torah - and that is quite simply insane.

Really, BDBoy - how much of a genius does one have to be to understand that ONLY Jewish Scripture is relevant to deciding what is acceptable to Judaism?
Moderated by Merope on Feb 07, 2011 - 12:21PM
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2 years ago  ::  Feb 07, 2011 - 12:30PM #23
Merope
Merope
Posts: 8,267
Hi, all,

This thread has been temporarily locked for moderator review.

Under the local guidelines for this forum, this forum is set aside for members of Jews for Jesus to discuss among themselves issues relevant to their faith.  It is not designated as a debate or critique forum.  If you are not a member of Jews for Jesus, you are welcome  to post here only so long as you do not debate.

Better places to continue or resume this discussion would be the Discuss Christianity, Discuss Judaism, or Multifaith forums.

Many thanks,
M
Merope | Beliefnet Community Manager
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