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Switch to Forum Live View Chat between a Missionary and an Evangelical
6 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2009 - 3:21AM #1
christianincollege
Posts: 12
I am an evangelical Christian and I had a chat with a LDS missionary online at and official LDS website.  The dialogue is at http://christianincollege.com/2008/04/2 … issionary/ for anyone interested.  I think it is such a useful feature to be able to chat live with an LDS missionary.  Have any of you used this tool?  Also, what do you think about the conversation I had?
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2009 - 10:14AM #2
UwishUwereMe
Posts: 2,352
Hey Christian Brother!  You seem pretty cool, and as a 'fairly young guy' can totally relate to your questions/comments. 

I have been billed on other sites as an "evangelical mormon" and if you read some of my posts and threads you may figure out why. 

I see things through a slightly different lens as-it-were, and still agree with the teachings of my church.  I believe that ultimately Grace IS what 'saves' us.  I agree with you that prayer is not a'work' per se, but I look at it from a stand point of 'effort' sometimes words and terms are used differently and with out changing the meaning of the word ot term they may appear as though we or I or anyone is differently.  So when I was baptised, it took effort of putting on white clothes, reading scriptures, learning a few prepatory things, and since I grew up in a very tiny isolated area with out a gym, or a community pool anywhere remotely close, I was baptised in a lake.  So it took effort, to prepare for baptism, to drive to the lake, to study, ponder, and pray, etc, etc. 

Hopefully I am making sense.  So, when I see the word "works" the first thing I think of is someone doing all sorts of good deeds thinking s/he is 'earning' their way into Heaven.  I don't look at it that way, but I look at it like works is making the EFFORT to build a relationship with the savior. 

I am like way off base here, or am I making any sense at all?

I  feel that though doing some sort of good deeds come from the abilities that God has given us with respect to those works.  I feel that once you have accepted Jesus as your savior, and have been 'saved' you will want to share this with others, as IMHO that is a pretty AMAZING feeling!  SO I joing clubs and organizations that will help me reach out to people so that I can share my feelings. 

I hope I haven't totally lost you here.  I just wanted to pipe in about some of my own ideas.  Every Mormon is as unique as his/her finger prints.  So it can be unfortunate when 15 odd-million people are lumped into one basket as being robotic "yes" people.

Hopefully you will check back and dialog with me/us a little bit.  There is alot more I wanna hear from you and that I wanna share! 

P.S.  Getting information from places like MRM, and so on is probably NOT the best place to tell people to get information about the LDS Church, with all duw respect, they are typically a group that prides themselves on 'exposing' the lies, the misdoctrines, and the plain wrongness of the CJC. 

The genuinely best places to get correct info about the Church is www.mormon.org or www.lds.org or any of their legit links.   We know our selves best and we are not in the business of lying and deceiving to wins converts. 

God Bless
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2009 - 11:39AM #3
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,220
Welcome, interesting website, I should volunteer. I have gone through and pulled out some of your questions and a few of his answers.

1, Doesn’t it bother you that what you’d learn in high school and college about history and archeology seems to point away from the Book of Mormon?


Did you learn in high school that Jesus is real? Did they use your Bible as a guide to history?

Not unless you went to a Christian high school, I bet.

No, we will never find a sign saying welcome to the Land of Nephi. BUT there are now many archeological findings pointing to things, which Joseph Smith could not have known, that prove the Book of Mormon.

It is a law of probability, if ya mount up enough items which support a theory pretty soon ya have to believe that it’s a darn good possibility.


2, Have you ever heard of the Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith DVD before? It has been going around.

Yes and I’ve watch it, it was typically anti Mormon junk; we all got a chuckle out of it.

If you care to you can see a rebuttal here;

http://en.fairmormon.org/Search_for_the_Truth_DVD
Wise men still seek him.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2009 - 11:44AM #4
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,220
3, You said; Ok, isn’t it possible that the revelation Paul speaks of is not a subjective feeling, but rather God’s Word?……My thought though is that the heart is deceitfully wicked.


You’re quoting Jer 17 so let’s put that in context and compare it to some other passages.

In the first place the use of ‘the heart’ in Hebrew writing is an idiom for the mind of man.

They believed we think with our hearts instead of our brains, (they weren’t sure what the gray matter was for).

Prov 23 “For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he”

It also implies our individual spirits which God has placed in us it controls our actions and thinking.


Here is a truth taught to Samuel by the Lord;

“But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.” 1 Sam 16

We should not judge a man by his appearance he could be evil or he could be good, we can’t tell. Only the Lord can know what a man is really thinking or what kind of man he is on the inside.

Now let’s look at what Jeremiah wrote;

Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord...

Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. .

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”

He is telling us the same truth Samuel was told, we can not trust men they can be deceitful, only God can know what is really in their hearts. We must trust and rely on God.

Jeremiah never intended to say we can not trust our own hearts and feelings.
Wise men still seek him.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2009 - 11:49AM #5
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,220
This miss reading of the holy scriptures is a ploy by Satan to stop you from trusting your own heart and feelings. It prevents you from seeking the witness of the Spirit which speaks to us Spirit to spirit.

Let’s look at what the Bible actually teaches by going back to prov 23

“For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he…Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge…. Hear thou, my son, and be wise, and guide thine heart in the way”


And here in
Ps 119:2 “Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart….my heart standeth in awe of thy word.”

And from Paul,
Rom 5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Rom 10;
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We must be able to trust our own hearts or minds to seek God, to turn them over to God, to feel the love of God and the witness of the Holy Spirit.

You do have a point concerning God’s word or his scriptures. When Jesus showed himself to some men on the road he opened up the scriptures to them and helped them to see the truths there in. and they said

“Did not our heartburn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?”

What they experienced was the Holy Spirit confirming the truths taught to them through the scriptures.

Paul also said; “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God”

I don’t know how to help you open up your own heart or spirit to the Holy Spirit Justin. It’s something only you and the Lord can work through together, but you must learn to trust your own heart and that the Lord can witness to you through his Spirit.
Wise men still seek him.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2009 - 11:55AM #6
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,220
4, Whoh. So I must obey the gospel, or the laws and ordinances of the church?

Bryce:
your works aren’t what save you, grace is, we do what Christ asks so that we don’t mock the grace he has given us

Justin:
I believe that good works is a fruit of being saved, not a prerequisite to “God’s grace effecting your life”.


I really like Bryce’s answer there, refusing to follow God’s command and yet claiming to be a Christian is a mockery.

“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?” 1 John 4

Ya just can’t claim to love God, ya have walk the walk. You have to forgive your brother

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” Matt 6

It all goes back to what is in your heart, He knows.


What is grace in the first place? Do you have away to define it?

I define it as “the love of God”. He loved us so much that He gave his only begotten Son. The Son loved us so much that he was willing to suffer for our sins vicariously by the shedding of his own blood.

Now the question is are you worthy of that love and blood?

The pat little rehearse answer of the “born againer” is no one can ever be worthy and in away they are right; we are all unprofitable servants.

But the Lord said; “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” John 14



Let’s look at your concerns about ‘laws and ordinances’

There is a passage from the Book of Mormon which has been greatly miss used by the antis and I’m afraid you have fallen into the same trap. The little quote you will see is;

“ for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” 2 Nephi 25

It really has been taken out of context. It is written by a man who is still under the Law of Moses.

Nephi speaks of the coming of the Messiah who would be rejected by the Jews and then he says;

“ …we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments…”


What he was saying is that even though we know that the law of Moses with all of it’s ordinances are dead works and cannot save us we must continue to keep them because we have been command to.

Now you and I are very blessed to have come to the earth when the blood of Christ has already been shed, the law has been fulfilled, not ended but fulfilled.

We are under the New and Everlasting Covenant. Under that covenant new ordinances have been given. Do I have a complete understanding of them, no. I do not understand how going into the waters of baptism brings about a remission of my sins, I just know I’ve been commanded to do it. (see Acts 2:38)


“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” Matt 28

The Lord commanded his Apostles to baptize and we’ve been taught to observe “all things” he commanded them, so this is what I am trying to do.

I do have an understanding that baptism is a stamp or seal of the New Covenant. It is away for me to show an act of faith and for him to apply his grace.

Baptism and all the other ordinances are not “good works” but are blessings and sealings.

Baptism does not save me, I could be baptized all day long but if the love of God is not found in my heart it would do me no good.

Baptism does open the door or gate.

In Matt 7 Christ paints a picture for us of a gate and a path way;

“Enter ye in at the straitgate….Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”
Note the gate is before the path not at the end of it.

Bowing the knee to our Savior by obeying his command to be baptized is only the beginning we must then place our feet on that narrow path way. His Holy Spirit is there to guide us as we move along. Sometime we lose our way but with the help of the Holy Spirit as he works upon our hearts we can find it again.
Wise men still seek him.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2009 - 12:00PM #7
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,220
5, I’ve seen your little tricky rewording of the Bible concerning being perfect used before.

What you are doing is confusing salvation with perfection/eternal life.

The rich young man who comes to the Savior is a Jew and by his very virtue of being born Jewish he assumes he is saved.

But he asks; what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

The Savior then walks him through the basic 10 commandments and the young man answers honestly that he has kept the commandments, he is a committed and faithful Jew as was Nephi but he sense there is yet something he lacks.

“Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”

He’s asking him to take a leap of faith to give all that he has and to follow him, only then will he find the eternal life and perfection he seeks.

Do you believe Jesus, do you really believe him? There is a difference between believing “in him” and “believing him”.

He said to Isaiah “ though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow”

I’m not going to leave this earth life perfect but I believe Christ words and trust him that those sins or weakness which I have not overcome during this life time will be washed away in his blood, they will be blotted out and made white.
Wise men still seek him.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2009 - 12:01PM #8
withwonderingawe
Posts: 5,220
Uwish; I have been billed on other sites as an "evangelical mormon"…..Hopefully I am making sense


Forget it Uwish, you’re a Mormon and gay, the two worse things possible for this fundamental Christian; your doom to hell to burn eternally.


Ah.... I’m just LOL and falling off my chair.
Wise men still seek him.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2009 - 12:26PM #9
christianincollege
Posts: 12
You said evangelicals often take the BOM verse " for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” out of context, but the Mormon missionary who came to me himself quoted this verse with that intended meaning.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 16, 2009 - 12:38PM #10
UwishUwereMe
Posts: 2,352
WWA, why do you feel the need to attack, and slander, and berate?

Your comments are usually VERY attacking and rude, to GAIA, BILL, and Myself.  You make it a point to point out our preceived weaknesses, and attack us.

You again began attacking Justin, for some preceived threat that simply doesn't exist!  His dialog with the missionary was respectful, it was cordial, it was NOT innappropriate in any way. 

I think when people read your posts they can see through you and see some sort of mental imbalance.   This is obvious in your posts. 

WWA:

Forget it Uwish, you’re a Mormon and gay, the two worse things possible for this fundamental Christian; your doom to hell to burn eternally.

I am glad first that you have decided to judge my heart and my sole, I guess I thought that judgement belonged to Jesus Christ, not WWA.  Oooops my bad! 

It also shows your lack of understanding of the subject matter when someone can identify with the Evangelical views of Jesus, but remain a LDS, I suppose it causes stress to your little peanut brain to try to comprehend what I am trying to articulate.

If I were and investigator of the Church, and I ran across you, I would probably run for the hills!


Ah.... I’m just LOL and falling off my chair.

I am glad you can first tell me who I am, then make light of a very terrible personal struggle that I have, and "LOL"

You label Justin as a "Fundamental Christian" as though it's a plague.  You DO NOT like it when other folks cast stones at us. 

This Justin kid seems pretty respectful and descent, way to put him on the edge like that... very CHRISTIAN of you. 

It makes me glad that being a TRUE CHRISTIAN is defined by your relationship with the savior, rather then the Name of the Church you attend!

You need to take your pill and grow up! 

Please, everyone, it's time for evening meds, WWA needs to go back to her room and be sedated.
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