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Switch to Forum Live View What kind of Pagan are you?
5 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2008 - 8:39PM #21
gorm_sionnach
Posts: 237
Yes Eyes, English is my native language, the various spelling errors in my last post are due to the fact that I was in a bit of a rush when I typed it.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2008 - 11:43PM #22
seventhcrow
Posts: 316
[QUOTE=tameless_heart;877459]You know Eyes, I think it is pretty spiffy that youve come to post here. I know you've made me think, and I"m pretty sure some other people have too. So, don't stop posting,but do as we do and keep an open mind and the discussions flowing. ;)[/QUOTE]

I dunno, little birdie. I keep running across the jackassery in his posts and tune out right quick. Perhaps it's my advanced age and sense of impending demise that leads me to not suffer such gladly--or at all. I only expect another 40 years in this life and don't care to waste much of it in that fashion.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 06, 2008 - 11:43PM #23
seventhcrow
Posts: 316
[QUOTE=tameless_heart;877459]You know Eyes, I think it is pretty spiffy that youve come to post here. I know you've made me think, and I"m pretty sure some other people have too. So, don't stop posting,but do as we do and keep an open mind and the discussions flowing. ;)[/QUOTE]

I dunno, little birdie. I keep running across the jackassery in his posts and tune out right quick. Perhaps it's my advanced age and sense of impending demise that leads me to not suffer such gladly--or at all. I only expect another 40 years in this life and don't care to waste much of it in that fashion.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2008 - 11:24AM #24
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,707
Yes, I'm sorry everyone. I've already posted twice so this will be the shortest.

It started with my stupid simpsons reference then I figured, after I had written about Krusty but before hitting "Post" to try to articulate my feelings about Paganism, which I've never attempted before... apparently my childhood in Catholic School has resulted in a big backlash at what I see as, to be brief, hypocrisy...

Anyway, I'm not going to mention Xianity in this Forum any more unless specifically asked to.

Thanks for reading, folks. I scrolled through and realized how much typing we did yesterday.
Gorm, thanks for putting up with me.

But who's the old crow that's sqawking about wasting time? why would you even post about wasting time? is that not wasting time? I'd really appreciate, if you're able to actually convey an intelligent thought, to articulate what in my posts constituted "jackassery", and also, either before or after that, please explain what "jackassery" means. That must come from a few generations back.

That is, if you have time and haven't croaked already!

Take care (and take your meds old crow)
What Fatal Flowers of Darkness Bloom from Seeds of Light!
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2008 - 3:10PM #25
CreakyHedgewitch
Posts: 1,244
I do appreciate that you have already figured out that while a diatribe about Christianity on a Paganism board whose subject is ‘what kind of a Pagan are you?’ may be relevant to you trying to identify what you are as a pagan, it can and could derail the topic itself.

As you have decided to refrain from discussing Christianity further (thank you), I will also refrain from courteously disagreeing with you on a number of points you raised. You have facing you a tremendous challenge, Eyes. You clearly enjoy history and are striving to understand the greater context of history around the subjects that you find relevant. Doing so through any kind of a bias will restrict what you learn. For example, taking a hard look at Christianity when one is not willing to accede that this religion wasn’t or isn’t unequivocally and uniformly evil is clearly motivated by a bias.

I come from the background of a modern spectrum of faiths where a similar bias is popularised against ‘patriarchy’ as if such is to blame for everything that isn’t the way feminists today would like. Within my faith, we call such a profound bias against patriarchy going through the ‘Rage Phase’ and it usually occurs at the beginning when a woman is exploring (feminist) faith options. Some women never get beyond the Rage Phase. Many, including myself, do come through (metaphorically/spiritually kicking and screaming) and start seeing the world again in diverse colors rather than in stark shades of black and white. It isn’t easy and all the more so when one has experienced a transition out of a childhood faith. I do however sincerely hope that you take up this challenge, if not soon then someday.

If you haven’t already, you might want to read Ronald Hutton’s “Stations of the Sun”. While focused on Britain and all the celebrations from that culture, it provides the historical background behind the evolution of the modern Pagan Sabbats. Hutton is an Oxford historian and not Pagan. He writes with as little bias as I think one can manage in academia and doesn’t state conclusions, rather presenting both sides and letting the reader decide.

Mary FYI is derived from Miryam, a Hebrew word meaning bitterness. There is speculation that it may also have an Egyptian origin, mry or mr (beloved/love). After the word was translated into Greek (Mariam or Maria) and then into Latin along with the translations of the Old Testament probably led early Christians to conflate the Latin word for sea into a definition for Mary as the ‘sea of bitterness’.

To address the open question you asked, pantheism means “God is All” – in other words, everything is part of an all encompassing immanent deity where the universe, nature and deity are all equivalent. A rather abstract concept as this deity is usually not perceived as personalised or relating to or capable of having a one-to-one relationship with individuals. Classical Pantheism in ancient Greece for instance, did believe in a personal deity and often included a deity that would unite all ‘true religions’ (one of those catch phrases that sound send alarm bells ringing…). It was also imbedded into Judaism as well as Hinduism and through the latter into Buddhism. Hindus for example believe one must be liberated from the human condition before one can ‘know’ the whole – deity or God. Interestingly, early Christians were labelled as atheists by the Romans for holding just such beliefs as it seemed to demonstrate that they didn’t believe in any actual deity (or deities). Biblical pantheism obviously descended from the Judaic and takes its validation from scriptures with acts of nature being seen as acts of God. In the 18th century and within the European Enlightenment pantheism evolved into naturalistic pantheism (one author Toland coined the term itself). Not many Muslims are pantheistic however though it does appear in some forms of Sufism. Pantheism had often been associated with New Age philosophies, one of whose markers is the all encompassing unity that will unite ‘all true religions’. New Age prophets often use aspects of pantheism to provide a framework for its claims.

While whole parts of the spectrum of modern Paganism are not nature-oriented specifically, variations of the last definition of pantheism tends to be the most widespread when being used. Ironic as naturalistic pantheism – as a whole – tends to deny the existence of any deity and sees the Universe as non-sentient and yet sacred. However the ‘modern Pagan’ definitions tend to focus on unity as an all-encompassing force/deity and that nature is sacred with its own laws. I tend to see many modern Pagans likely falling under panentheism where deity exists but rather than being synonymous with the physical world/universe, is held to inter-penetrate such as well as extend far beyond what human beings can know. Though typicaly Pagans are polytheists, panentheism itself is that this deity may or may not be considered the creator of the universe relating to the concept that the universe is contained with this deity, being far greater in scope. Another interpretation is that this deity is the (sacred) force that animates the universe, again which is the part of this deity that we as human experience. 
With many modern Pagans again, pantheism would most likely would need to be combined with polytheism, soft or hard. 

Nature-orientation within modern Paganism is debated as well as variously defined. As Gorm pointed out, ancient ‘pagans’ might revere nature in abstract terms or even personify it but they were not always ecologically responsible. The ideal of nature=paganism has been traced back to the influences of the Romanticism Movement of the 18th and 19th centuries where paganism was identified as the ideal pastoral harmony between mankind, nature and religion. Nature-orientation certainly isn’t universal within modern Paganism. The Religion of Wicca for example is god- and people-oriented not nature-oriented though some of the Wiccanesque flavours out there would have one believe otherwise.

I expect that whatever label you choose, you will have to define it depending on whom you are talking to. Neo-Classical Paganism to me would be Greek or Roman Reconstructionism. An example of how what one knows delineates what they interpret. 

C.H.

It may be a facet of your posting style but please understand that comments about other members, particularly those that are derogatory or sarcastic may get whatever you post removed for violation of the ROC. That includes any valuable points or questions that you have raised. So please refrain from speculating about other members and instead discuss the ideas and beliefs that are being presented.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 10, 2008 - 9:33AM #26
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,707
Hi Creaky! I didn't have time to read your post yesterday so I put it off til today. Thanks for that info!

I will refrain from any ad hominem attacks from here forward. I wish we could delete some of that stuff, but it's better to let history stand and not try to clean it up.

I'll have to think a bit before I even try to reply...
What Fatal Flowers of Darkness Bloom from Seeds of Light!
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 10, 2008 - 12:06PM #27
Dromahair
Posts: 559
[QUOTE=EyesoftheWorld;877265]Considering Dromahair, in another thread, who I hope does not mind me citing his post, said basically that the Xian Church has defined Paganism... so to think a discussion of Paganism can be so easily conducted without a hard look at Xianity strikes me as either unrealistic or as motivated by a bias...[/QUOTE]

I only mind you citing my posts if you're doing so out of context.

I said that Christians had (over the last couple thousand years) defined the word Pagan as Non-Christian - a definition I happen to agree with.  It's only a pejorative if you see non-christian as being bad.  Further, they don't get to define what we believe, only what is and is not christian.

This is not meant to restart this conversation but rather to set the record straight on what I did or did not say in another thread.
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 10, 2008 - 2:58PM #28
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,707
Hi dromahair, thank you for clarifying that. I feel I need to clarify that it's not that I perceive "non-Xian" as bad; it's that the word "Pagan" did and still does to many, have pejoritive qualities... So while I don't make the connotation between "Pagan" and "bad", I think it's almost safe to say that that connotation has always been the intention of the Xian Church...

By the way, were you the one I asked about whether you know anything about the "Black Irish"?
What Fatal Flowers of Darkness Bloom from Seeds of Light!
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 10, 2008 - 6:09PM #29
Dromahair
Posts: 559
[QUOTE=EyesoftheWorld;885889]So while I don't make the connotation between "Pagan" and "bad", I think it's almost safe to say that that connotation has always been the intention of the Xian Church...[/QUOTE]

>>shrug<<
In the world I live in everyone is not required to like everybody else.
Some of 'them' choose to see 'us' as the opposition.  I'm okay with that.


[QUOTE]By the way, were you the one I asked about whether you know anything about the "Black Irish"?[/QUOTE]

Yep, but why do your research for you?  Start [COLOR="Blue"]here[/COLOR].
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5 years ago  ::  Nov 11, 2008 - 12:04AM #30
Redfrog777
Posts: 2,136
WOW, ya’ll are thinking about this WAY too much!!!!!

What kinda pagan are you? Sure seems a straightforward question, simple and to the point.

Thanks to beliefnet I now realize that I am agnostic pantheist shaman. Way more labels then when I started this lil journey, but it’s honest. And yes I very much consider myself a pagan. Mostly cuz it pisses the Christians off (OK, just kidding).

I don’t know about ya’ll but the earth speaks to me (really) and so do the trees and the rocks and animals and wind and rain and and and and……………

I journey into other worlds that I can literally feel in my body back here on earth.

I pray to the mystery that is life.

And I have no idea what the hell is going on.

For myself I have found that words just get in the way. If you’re talking about it, you ain’t living it. 

It really seems unimportant to worry about what others are doing with their beliefs or why. That’s their problem.

So what kinda pagan are you?
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