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6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 7:23PM #11
sazaj36
Posts: 331
Funny you say that because you assume I have not read such things.....I have and have still come to the same conclusion. Your claiming God made an exception for Muslim men to marry what you consider to be unbelievers and idol worshippers...meanwhile Muslims are prohibited from marrying them period. So in your opinion was God  rather wishy washy on the subject of whether we can or cannot marry unbelievers and idol worshippers...or are you saying God doesnt mind that Muslim men will marry and allow their children to be  raised by women that are either unbelievers or idol worshippers? So its ok for Muslim men but not for Muslim women....dont need scholars  to tell me thats wrong...thanks anyhow.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 7:25PM #12
Ceren
Posts: 1,430
Assalamu `alaykum,

I think you are ignoring the many classifications of shirk and the many subtleties of shirk that scholars have explained throughout the history of Islamic thought. Even Muslims can commit (and do commit) certain kinds of shirk.

Regarding those verses of Surah at-taubah...

1) The word "shirk" or "mushrik" does not appear at all in the verses.
2) The verses are saying (truly so) that the Jews that call Uzair Ibnullah, and the Christians that call Jesus also son of Allah swt are committing disbelief. It does not do an all-together condemnation
3) It also condemns people (among whom are some Muslims unfortunately) that would rather follow people in authority than Allah swt.

So again, I don't think you have established good proof for your claim and in the future I would suggest that you'd be a little more careful in matters of aqeedah. In general, I tend to be more daring with fiqh (badly so), but in aqeedah we should be more careful.

In addition, I would advice you to stay away from the works of Bilal Philips who most of the `ulama agree is unfortunately misguided and has said many things that go against the consensus of the ahl sunnah wal jama`.

All the best,
Ceren
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 8:04PM #13
muaminva
Posts: 18
[QUOTE=Ceren;618929]Assalamu `alaykum,

I think you are ignoring the many classifications of shirk and the many subtleties of shirk that scholars have explained throughout the history of Islamic thought. Even Muslims can commit (and do commit) certain kinds of shirk.

Regarding those verses of Surah at-taubah...

1) The word "shirk" or "mushrik" does not appear at all in the verses.
2) The verses are saying (truly so) that the Jews that call Uzair Ibnullah, and the Christians that call Jesus also son of Allah swt are committing disbelief. It does not do an all-together condemnation
3) It also condemns people (among whom are some Muslims unfortunately) that would rather follow people in authority than Allah swt.

So again, I don't think you have established good proof for your claim and in the future I would suggest that you'd be a little more careful in matters of aqeedah. In general, I tend to be more daring with fiqh (badly so), but in aqeedah we should be more careful.

In addition, I would advice you to stay away from the works of Bilal Philips who most of the `ulama agree is unfortunately misguided and has said many things that go against the consensus of the ahl sunnah wal jama`.

All the best,
Ceren[/QUOTE]
AsSalaamu 'alaikum,

A more careful reading of my post would have shown that I listed 3 of the categories of shirk among the many classified by the scholars. My post is not and should not be viewed as an in depth explanation of the subject but as an answer to a question on a web forum. More complete and in depth works by various scholars are readily available. However, I do not currently have access to cite title and author. Although I still recommend studying any of the relevant ayahs in Ibn Kathir.

I also made the same point as to the behavior of some Muslims in this regard.

If you have any evidence as to the character or quality of scholarship of Bilal Philips, please send such to me in an e-mail or post a comment on my page so that I can benefit from your knowledge.

May Allah (SWA) forgive us all for our mistakes and omissions and may we be guided to sound knowledge as we learn from each other.

Masalaamah
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2008 - 9:37PM #14
minUnee
Posts: 3
As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم)

Bismillah (In the name of Allah)

Below you will find the original arabic text of Al-Baqarah (The Cow) (2:221)
‏2:221 ولاتنكحوا المشركات حتى يؤمن ولامة مؤمنة خير من مشركة ولو اعجبتكم ولاتنكحوا المشركين حتى يؤمنوا ولعبد مؤمن خير من مشرك ولو اعجبكم اولئك يدعون الى النار والله يدعو الى الجنة والمغفرة باذنه ويبين اياته للناس لعلهم يتذكرون
[COLOR="Green"]Transliteration[/COLOR]
Wala tankihoo almushrikati hatta yu/minna walaamatun mu/minatun khayrun min mushrikatin walaw aAAjabatkum wala tunkihoo almushrikeena hatta yu/minoo walaAAabdun mu/minun khayrun min [COLOR="green"]mushrikin [/COLOR]walaw aAAjabakum ola-ika yadAAoona ila alnnari waAllahu yadAAoo ila aljannati waalmaghfirati bi-ithnihi wayubayyinu ayatihi lilnnasi laAAallahum yatathakkaroona 

Al-Mushrikun: polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad (PBUH)

[COLOR="green"]Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 2:221
Al-Baqarah - The Cow
Verse: 221[/COLOR]


[COLOR="green"]Literal [/COLOR]
And do not marry the takers of partners (with God) (F) until they believe, and an owned believing female slave (E) (is) better from (than) a taker of partners (with God) (F), and (even) if she pleased/marveled you. And do not marry the takers of partners (with God) (M) until they believe, and a believing slave (M/E) (is) better from a taker of partners (with God) (M), and (even) if he pleased/marveled you, those call to the fire, and God calls to the Paradise, and the forgiveness with His will, and He clarifies His signs/verses/evidences to the people, maybe they mention/remember .

[COLOR="green"]Yusuf Ali[/COLOR]
Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.

[COLOR="green"] Pickthal[/COLOR]
Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember. 

[COLOR="green"]Arberry[/COLOR]
Do not marry idolatresses, until they believe; a believing slavegirl is better than an idolatress, though you may admire her. And do not marry idolaters, until they believe. A believing slave is better than an idolater, though you may admire him. Those call unto the Fire; and God calls unto Paradise, and pardon, by His leave, and He makes clear His signs to the people; haply they will remember.

[COLOR="green"]Shakir [/COLOR]
And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful. 

[COLOR="green"]Sarwar [/COLOR]
Do not marry pagan women unless they believe in God. A believing slave girl is better than an idolater, even though the idolaters may attract you. Do not marry pagan men unless they believe in God. A believing slave is better than an idolater, even though the idolater may attract you. The pagans invite you to the fire, but God invites you to Paradise and forgiveness through His will. God shows His evidence to people so that they may take heed.

[COLOR="green"]Khalifa [/COLOR]
Do not marry idolatresses unless they believe; a believing woman is better than an idolatress, even if you like her. Nor shall you give your daughters in marriage to idolatrous men, unless they believe. A believing man is better than an idolater, even if you like him. These invite to Hell, while GOD invites to Paradise and forgiveness, as He wills. He clarifies His revelations for the people, that they may take heed.

[COLOR="green"]Hilali/Khan [/COLOR]
And do not marry Al-Mushrikat (idolatresses, etc.) till they believe (worship Allah Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress, etc.), even though she pleases you. And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikoon till they believe (in Allah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater, etc.), even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikoon) invite you to the Fire, but Allah invites (you) to Paradise and Forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember.

[COLOR="green"]H/K/Saheeh [/COLOR]
And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist, even though she might please you. And do not marry polytheistic men [to your women] until they believe. And a believing slave is better than a polytheist, even though he might please you. Those invite [you] to the Fire, but Allah invites to Paradise and to forgiveness, by His permission. And He makes clear His verses to the people that perhaps they may remember.

[COLOR="green"]Malik[/COLOR]
Do not marry pagan women until they become believers; a believing slave woman is better than a free pagan woman even though she may be more attractive to you. Likewise, do not marry pagan men until they become believers: a believing slave is better than a free pagan even though he may be more pleasing to you. These pagans invite you to the hellfire while Allah invites you towards paradise and forgiveness by His grace. He makes His revelations clear to mankind so that they may take heed.[221]

[COLOR="green"]Maulana Ali[/COLOR]
And marry not the idolatresses until they believe; and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress even though she please you. Nor give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing slave is better than an idolater, even though he please you. These invite to the Fire and Allah invited to the Garden and to forgiveness by His will and He makes clear His messages to men that they may be mindful.

[COLOR="green"]Free Minds[/COLOR]
And do not marry the females who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if she attracts you. And do not marry the males who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to Paradise and forgiveness by His leave. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember. 

[COLOR="green"]Qaribullah  [/COLOR]
Do not wed idolatresses, until they believe. A believing slavegirl is better than a (free) idolatress, even if she pleases you. And do not wed idolaters, until they believe. A believing slave is better than a (free) idolater, even though he pleases you. Those call to the Fire; but Allah calls to Paradise and pardon by His permission. He makes plain His verses to the people, in order that they will remember. 

[COLOR="green"]JM Rodwell[/COLOR]
Marry not idolatresses until they believe; a slave who believeth is better than an idolatress, though she please you more. And wed not your daughters to idolaters until they believe; for a slave who is a believer, is than better an idolater, though he plea.

[COLOR="green"] Asad[/COLOR]
AND DO NOT many women who ascribe divinity to aught beside God ere they attain to [true] belief: for any believing bondwoman [of God] is certainly better than a woman who ascribes divinity to aught beside God, even though she please you greatly. And do not give your women in marriage to men who ascribe divinity to aught beside God ere they attain to [true] belief: for- any believing bondman [of God] is certainly better than a man who ascribes divinity to aught beside God, even though he please you greatly. [Such as] these invite unto the fire, whereas God invites unto paradise, and unto [the achievement of] forgiveness by His leave; and He makes clear His messages unto mankind, so that they might bear them in mind.

As you can see there are many translations(Interpretations) of the noble Qur'an.
There are certain Arabic words that really can not be translated into English just a closeness of another word.
The true beauty of the noble Qur'an is found in its original Arabic text.
If the translations above still does not help you, I suggest you learn to read Arabic so you yourself can see the true meaning.Insha Allah

May Allah help us all with our differences. Insha Allah
Please be mindful that back-biting is haram (sinful) in Islam.
May Allah forgive me if I mistyped anything of the above.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2008 - 2:37AM #15
GraceSA
Posts: 1,100
[QUOTE=muaminva;617674]

'Ibn Jarir related that Zayd bin Wahb said that 'Umar bin Khattab aid, "The muslim man marries the Christian woman, but the Christian man does not marry the Muslim woman."'

While the Qur'an uses the distinction of Ahl al-Kitab, this should not be viewed a sperate classification of people, but rather as a catagory of people falling with in and between the two classifications of believer and no-believer. This is the way the Qur'an and Sunnah consistantly treats them.

May Allah (SWA) bless us all with guidance and understanding of those things that only he knows best. And may we always seek the knowledge he has left for us from his Qur'an as well as the Sunnah and Hadith so that we may be saved from our ignorance.[/QUOTE]

Umar does not have the status that allows his statements (assuming they can be verified) to be held as law for all Muslims for all time. And I imagine a man of his good charactar would be extrememly uncomfortable to have his utterences used in this manner.

The Quran does indeed distinguish Ahl al-Kitab from others.  That is good enough for me.  The vast majority of Christians at the time of the prophet were staunchly Trinitarian and recognized the divinity of Christ.  I assume Allah was aware of all that- and that the disticntion he makes is what is right.
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2008 - 2:53PM #16
Miraj
Posts: 5,023
2: 221 applies to all Muslims, not just Muslimas. So, does 60:10, which disallows marriage between Muslims and those who are hostile to Islam. There is nothing in the Quran or the Sunnah that forbids Muslimas from marrying, therefore, there is no prohibition directly attributable to Allah or the Prophet, the most authoratative sources of law in Islam.

A basic tenet of fiqh is the asl al deen, which states simply that only Allah can decree something to be haram, and if He did not make it haram, then it is left as a blessing to us. In that light, no law deriving from fiqh can be legitimately held out as completely binding unless derived directly from divine law. They are to be discerned and challenged in light of the divine law, and dismissed if not essential to the preservation of the Word and its implementation.

The prohibition which is being discussed is from fiqh, man-made law, which is not divine, nor infallible. The root of the prohibition comes from slavery law, which treats women as possessions, thus disallowing a Muslim woman from being "possesed" by a non-Muslim man, and subject to his direction. Women, in this paradigm, are defined by the men who control them under the law. They do not possess autonomy nor individuality. This is not halal Islam.

Since Allah makes it clear that there is a distinction between polytheists, kafaar, and ahl al kitab, and a distinction between those who practice properly and the hypocrites, and since Allah also say there will be those who do not call themselves Musiim who will enter heaven, there is no label that preserves one's value or determines one's pleasure before God.

Allah says that if He wanted to, He could make us all believe the same, but, as a test to us to learn to live together in peace, He did not. Surely, one who knows the Word has the ability to see that God has not favored men over women, nor one label over another, but declares repeatedly that it is by our acts that we will be judged. For a Muslima to marry the best ahl al kitab is better for her than to marry the worst Muslim, for it is by our own deeds that we will succeed or fail.

I do understand Arabic, I have studied the classics and the Word since childhood. I hold a Masters in Islamic law and have practiced law in the Mulim world as a human rights attorney, requiring a knowledge of how the texts are interpreted and applied in several schools and in accordance with the needs of the society being addressed.

The application of law in the matter of gender relations has been a struggle for tribal people, who may have a direct link to the Word, but have allowed jahilyya customs to usurp the Message in order to serve the desires of men, rather than the Will of God. It is difficult for me to understand the mindset of those who claim to adhere to the Word, but whom believe that Allah holds a preference for male over female. Since He has also said that He will judge between us, it's no guarantee that being Muslim will gain you entry into jannah, nor does it give you rights to decide who among us pleases Him and who does not. That is His domain and His domain alone. All any of us can do is the very best we can with what we believe to be the Truth,

Salaam
Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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6 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2008 - 9:21PM #17
tinyone664
Posts: 4
Thank you everyone for all of your knowledge and insight! i truley appreciate it..i have one more question tho...are there imams in the US who feel this way or percieve this as so? Miraj, u said before that you were married to a christian before.. was that done by an imam? i'd really like to know because my situation is seeming in dire need of help.

my parents are ready to disown me and wish me to hell, and my Imam says that no muslims are allowed to marry any nonmuslims. so, im' confused. terribly confused. and saddened by all of this. He has also said that it is the scholars of Islam which have done more harm to Islam then the enemies. how can that be when Allah (swt) has told us to learn and read and always seek the truth?

i want to do what is right...but i really feel that in order to appease my parents i will not be able to. I have the greatest respect for them, but sadly i've come to the conclusion that their choice for me in this is not the correct one. My fiancee loves me more then life itself and is completely devoted. There really are no unsurmountable problems btwn us besides the whole getting married part...

please help? thank you and Salaam to all!

tinyone664
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2008 - 2:06AM #18
Ceren
Posts: 1,430
[QUOTE=tinyone664;621089]Thank you everyone for all of your knowledge and insight! i truley appreciate it..i have one more question tho...are there imams in the US who feel this way or percieve this as so? Miraj, u said before that you were married to a christian before.. was that done by an imam? i'd really like to know because my situation is seeming in dire need of help.

my parents are ready to disown me and wish me to hell, and my Imam says that no muslims are allowed to marry any nonmuslims. so, im' confused. terribly confused. and saddened by all of this. He has also said that it is the scholars of Islam which have done more harm to Islam then the enemies. how can that be when Allah (swt) has told us to learn and read and always seek the truth?

i want to do what is right...but i really feel that in order to appease my parents i will not be able to. I have the greatest respect for them, but sadly i've come to the conclusion that their choice for me in this is not the correct one. My fiancee loves me more then life itself and is completely devoted. There really are no unsurmountable problems btwn us besides the whole getting married part...

please help? thank you and Salaam to all!

tinyone664[/QUOTE]

Assalamu `alaykum,

Regarding your parents... unfortunately I can't offer any advice. It is you who has to decide (and make istikhara) to see what the right decision is and if marrying your fiancee is more important than cutting ties with your parents. May God guide you to the right decision, whatever it might be.

Regarding your marriage itself... you don't need anyone to marry you for your marriage to be valid from an islamic point of view. You just need the offer, the acceptance, 2 witnesses, and the mahr. In addition, because we live in a non-Muslim land, you should get your marriage registered by the state.

So if you want a "ceremony"... all you need to do is ask any trustworthy friend to "marry" you. This is actually what many of my friends have done. Instead of getting a "Imam" who you don't really know to marry them, they have chosen people among their friends to do the ceremonies and it has been... way better!

All the best,
Ceren
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 14, 2008 - 9:37AM #19
tinyone664
Posts: 4
Thank you for all of your help and insight!! Inshallah it will work out for the best!

Salaam Alaikum!
tinyone664
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6 years ago  ::  Jul 14, 2008 - 11:37AM #20
saix
Posts: 5
wow, so some people here believe that believing in the trinity and believing that jesus (AS) as the son of God is not considered shirk. Didn't the pagans of mecca also attributed sons and daughters to God.

I think that you had already made up you mind before you asked the question, and that someone's opinion wasn't gonna change that.

salaam
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