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6 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2009 - 6:44PM #51
Ursyl
Posts: 462
Rereading that original post in yours Free2beme, I have to wonder, politely, just how our young friend is being openly Pagan.

I am just myself too, open without being in anyone's face about it, and only got the one friend reacting so poorly. Got an "oh my" once too, but find that the vast majority of people are cool about it as long as I am as polite as I expect them to be.

Make sense?
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6 years ago  ::  Jan 20, 2009 - 7:00PM #52
Free2beme09
Posts: 733

Ursyl wrote:

Rereading that original post in yours Free2beme, I have to wonder, politely, just how our young friend is being openly Pagan.

I am just myself too, open without being in anyone's face about it, and only got the one friend reacting so poorly. Got an "oh my" once too, but find that the vast majority of people are cool about it as long as I am as polite as I expect them to be.

Make sense?




You are making good sense.  ;)

That is definately something to think about.  :cool:

Religion is for those afraid of hell.  Spirituality is had by those who have been there!
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 8:02PM #53
CreakyHedgewitch
Posts: 1,244
Interesting. I’ve never encountered these derogatory definition(s) of Otherkin before, well not so far anyway. Thank you for how and why you define Elemental Witches. That certainly makes sense. It  always helps if you also know how someone else is using a term that may be familar to them but not to you. Or that you may define differently for example. Thank you also for sharing or clarifying further your definition of pagan. We are not that far apart on this, not that this matters of course. I do hold caveat myself with historical adaptations passed down by the vagaries of survivalism as being explainable as the ‘reincarnation of the old traditions of the world before written history’. While I really do understand the inspirational power involved in such a description, I would still question anyone’s sources that claimed actual knowledge of such traditions from a time when there were no written records. Actually even if there are written records since just like oral traditions, what is written or drawn also are endlessly adapted and changed by each successive generation. I tend to prefer Hutton's descriptive phrase 'streams of transmission' myself, it seems to more accurately describe how certain information is passed down while evolving. I would also consider the original rituals being created to be far more viable as that is literally what such individuals are practicing today, are they not?

Just a familar and long worn question evolving from what I typed and thrown out to anyone reading here although a famliar theme over the years for me. Indeed rather central on some levels as I followed this question into a modern-validated Pagan Witchcraft Tradition and similarly validated Neo-/Pagan Tradition/Religion.  Why is it that people seem to seek validity for a practice, faith etc in what supposedly has gone before or has been seemingly used by those now long dead instead of the validation being what they do here and now?

…because magick was a shared heritage not a learned one.



Depends on how one is defining magick, I suppose. There have certainly been numerous systems of belief that either qualify as magic/kal or are re-labelled as such down through history.  Most of these systems obviously shared or share basic human experiences and needs so at least on the surface they may even seem to be the parts of a greater whole. Context usually I have found indicates otherwise. The last time I looked though, all of them required being learned, if not from someone else or written source(s) then from one’s own trial and error. Or may I ask if this is/was a case of learning being defined specifically rather than generically?

However I'd like to point out that you mistook my defition to be a DEFINITIVE term which (fortunately among this diverse community) that would be paradoxical at best..



Actually I never take anyone’s definition(s) as definitive, including my own. I do however have to work with and respond to whatever you choose to post AS a definition in whatever ongoing and point of discussion. What you or any of us are posting is what I term working definitions. One starts with what one believes at this point in time about X and as one grows and changes, so (usually) does one’s working definition(s) of X. Without working definitions, would you not think that it is pretty hard to initiate or conduct discussions that help us all grow and change? At least that has been my experience to date. This however can have the unfortunate side-effect of making it seem as though one is trying to narrow a subject into a definitive term simply by the limited scope of one’s post(s).

I would also like to point out that you misquoted what I said.



You are always quite welcome to ask me if I meant this or that, Lunalupa prior to deciding if I did so. I don't mind at all being asked for clarifications and I am aware that my posting style tends to be rather pendantic and dry. Of course it can be cumbersome going back and forth about such clarifications but I have found that doing so helps to alleviate a great deal of misunderstanding. So are you referring to my use of your framework of text to illustrate my own perspective? If so, I don't consider that to be an example of misquoting as I wasn’t referencing your opinions, only my own. Otherwise, I’ve looked back over I responded and I can’t find whatever interpretation you are referring to. If you can specify, that would be much appreciated. I dislike misquoting anyone and strive not to do so if I can help it. 

I would also like to note that my question to other members about whether CM’s regard themselves as Neo-Pagans evolved out of what I was writing and was not referencing anything you specifically wrote.  As to the latter, you were quite clear on Neo-Paganism drawing upon CM influences, which I certainly agree with. I just don't have the same experience you do that this influence is or remains so heavily invested or directly influential today across the Neo-Paganism. If that is what you were describing, if not please let me know. Actually if I recall correctly, I had been a Neo-Pagan/Pagan Witch for more than twelve years before I learned that there even was a historical connection to or influences from CM. I certainly continue to meet new Neo-/Pagans to this day within many traditions that share that experience. It seems to come back to what one studies and has access to and/or how one puts the pieces together historically.

Respectfully,
C.H.

No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 8:05PM #54
CreakyHedgewitch
Posts: 1,244
[QUOTE=innerpoint;1031436]Creaky, I know this is an old statement but, reading back through the boards (playing catch-up), it caught my eye.  What did you mean by that sentence?  I've turned it over several times trying to figure it out - so I thought I'd just ask, instead.[/QUOTE]

"I can't think of any Wiccan Witches per se but it wouldn't surprise me to find such within the newer Traditions of the Religion of Wicca."

Lovely my friend, take something I wrote out of the larger context while expecting me to remember everything that I posted in the last however many months…. please point me back to where I wrote that and I’ll be able to explain what ‘such’ was referring to. Although most likely the sentence(s) before would explain what ‘such’ is referring to.

C.H.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 25, 2009 - 8:12PM #55
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,763

CreakyHedgewitch wrote:

"I can't think of any Wiccan Witches per se but it wouldn't surprise me to find such within the newer Traditions of the Religion of Wicca."

Lovely my friend, take something I wrote out of the larger context while expecting me to remember everything that I posted in the last however many months…. please point me back to where I wrote that and I’ll be able to explain what ‘such’ was referring to. Although most likely the sentence(s) before would explain what ‘such’ is referring to.

C.H.

Post 41    :)

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 26, 2009 - 11:03AM #56
Rayzorblade
Posts: 89

free2beme09 wrote:

Hey Brad!  I am going to hell and I am not Pagan. :p I think you should just be you.  As long as ones action do not effect another ones life, the hell with them.


HAHA! I love your choice of words! lol  thank you for the encouragement =D

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2009 - 2:18AM #57
Moonsmith
Posts: 81

Rayzorblade wrote:

Hey everyone,
I was just looking over the boards, and a question popped into my mind. I am a pagan, and open about it, i wont hide it away and pretend to be something I'm not. I was just wondering how other people react to you guys. I get met with hate and fear whenever someone finds out. I had a best friend of 5 years tell me I was going to a Christian hell. I have gotten death threats and all the yummy stuff and i am only 16! Just some thoughts.
Yours truly,
Brad
AKA Rayzorblade


I haven't read all the responses to the OP but I understand where they are coming from. I was raised pagan and have to deal with it quite a bit. I have tried other systems but the one I am using now works better than eny of the other mainstream systems I have found.

I have had friends who were devout Born Again Christians who when they first met me assumed I was a Devil Worshipper and would be cast into hell for sure. But as they got to know me, this view changed and they became curious.

I have had complete strangers assume I was a baby eating son of satan and by the end of the conversation, they were forced to grudgingly grant me respect and in some cases even protection.

This was because I didn't back down. I didn't get defensive. I knew more about their religion than they did. (Know your enemy-that is at the time acted as if they were the enemy...much better now, though). I used rational reasoning and allowed them to see some small part of my own honesty and passion for my path. I didn't try to dodge them or put them down or denigrate their perspective or religious views. I simply corrected their incorrect assumptions.

Of course, I have met the intractable as well. We learned to ignore each other and communicate only on surface subjects. Peaceful coexistence, that's the key. You don't have to like them. You don't have to agree with them. You do have to grant them the right to their beliefs and they to yours. And stand firm in that, don't back down and most of all, don't get defensive.

Also, if you're getting death threats, that's a report to the police automatically. Document it. Doesn't matter what your age is. You didn't threaten them, why should they do that to you? Stupid of them and shows their intolerance and ignorance. Hate crimes go both ways.

So what if they think you are going to their hell. You know different. Their bible says let God sort it out. Not them. They are not allowed to be an instrument of that deity's wrath. That's against their code of commandments. That's what their god has angels for...

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2009 - 10:14PM #58
tameless_heart
Posts: 2,084
You probably ought to read the thread... May I ask what pagan system you were raised in?
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5 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2009 - 12:20AM #59
LupaLuna
Posts: 30

CreakyHedgewitch wrote:

I do hold caveat myself with historical adaptations passed down by the vagaries of survivalism as being explainable as the ‘reincarnation of the old traditions of the world before written history’. While I really do understand the inspirational power involved in such a description, I would still question anyone’s sources that claimed actual knowledge of such traditions from a time when there were no written records. Actually even if there are written records since just like oral traditions, what is written or drawn also are endlessly adapted and changed by each successive generation. I tend to prefer Hutton's descriptive phrase 'streams of transmission' myself, it seems to more accurately describe how certain information is passed down while evolving. I would also consider the original rituals being created to be far more viable as that is literally what such individuals are practicing today, are they not?


Actually,
I meant some Neo-Pagan groups hold this view point of being the new incarnation of  a Pre-Historic Goddess cult and have often tried to validate this claim through scholarly means. While I respect that Goddess cults existed in pre-historical eras there is little evidence that can substantiate any claim to authentic ritual from that time and therefore this is where there is a divergence between Pagans and the more CM oriented Neo-Pagans. Lost pasts can't be reclaimed but we can build things from the ground up and that is a human trait.

Just a familar and long worn question evolving from what I typed and thrown out to anyone reading here although a famliar theme over the years for me. Indeed rather central on some levels as I followed this question into a modern-validated Pagan Witchcraft Tradition and similarly validated Neo-/Pagan Tradition/Religion.  Why is it that people seem to seek validity for a practice, faith etc in what supposedly has gone before or has been seemingly used by those now long dead instead of the validation being what they do here and now?


I guess they feel justified if they get validation from society at large by getting society to believe they are an ancient institution.


 

Depends on how one is defining magick, I suppose. There have certainly been numerous systems of belief that either qualify as magic/kal or are re-labelled as such down through history.  Most of these systems obviously shared or share basic human experiences and needs so at least on the surface they may even seem to be the parts of a greater whole. Context usually I have found indicates otherwise. The last time I looked though, all of them required being learned, if not from someone else or written source(s) then from one’s own trial and error. Or may I ask if this is/was a case of learning being defined specifically rather than generically?


Yes and no. You need to learn technique but magick is something you FEEL. A mother who (rgardless of her faith be it Christian/Jew/Muslim/Pagan) hears her child cry from across town, knowing something is wrong at home when you are several miles away....all these are shared intuitive talents and as great a part of magick as any. To direct energy instinctually is an unlearned habit, one can do it conciously with practice but if in danger instinct will summon energy one didn't even assume one could. So while I agree that techniques, culture based ritual and other accoutrements of magick must be learned, magick itself is there if we choose to find it.

Actually I never take anyone’s definition(s) as definitive, including my own. I do however have to work with and respond to whatever you choose to post AS a definition in whatever ongoing and point of discussion. What you or any of us are posting is what I term working definitions. One starts with what one believes at this point in time about X and as one grows and changes, so (usually) does one’s working definition(s) of X. Without working definitions, would you not think that it is pretty hard to initiate or conduct discussions that help us all grow and change? At least that has been my experience to date. This however can have the unfortunate side-effect of making it seem as though one is trying to narrow a subject into a definitive term simply by the limited scope of one’s post(s).


I meant to clarify what I thought you were assuming I meant to be a definite answer, I was merely trying to correct that impression.But mostly the clarifications are done for now.

I would also like to note that my question to other members about whether CM’s regard themselves as Neo-Pagans evolved out of what I was writing and was not referencing anything you specifically wrote.  As to the latter, you were quite clear on Neo-Paganism drawing upon CM influences, which I certainly agree with. I just don't have the same experience you do that this influence is or remains so heavily invested or directly influential today across the Neo-Paganism. If that is what you were describing, if not please let me know. Actually if I recall correctly, I had been a Neo-Pagan/Pagan Witch for more than twelve years before I learned that there even was a historical connection to or influences from CM. I certainly continue to meet new Neo-/Pagans to this day within many traditions that share that experience. It seems to come back to what one studies and has access to and/or how one puts the pieces together historically.

Respectfully,
C.H.


My comment on CM's was a direct reply to what I was well aware was not directed at my writing...I was actually trying to honestly answer your question because I've had some talks with folks who are CM one being the former Alternative Spirituality Union President at my college. He was pagan friendly but most of the members of his lodge were a little spiky in that regard.

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5 years ago  ::  Jan 28, 2009 - 8:42PM #60
drgnflame
Posts: 7
I can understand not wanting to yell it to anyone.  I like to keep my opinions to myself, but most people are not open minded to accept what others believe.  In my opinion, the more people you tell, the more they don't believe you and then the more negativity you will have towards your own beliefs.  I keep it to myself and if someone asks, I tell them "other".  Most of the time, they will not ask me anymore on the subject.  I have two friends that I know are open-minded enough to share this with, and when I explained my opinions and beliefs to them, they told me that I made a lot of sense and they respected me alot more.
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