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7 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 8:57PM #11
Ironhold
Posts: 11,587
[QUOTE=li47;450046]Ironhold, why was that Mormon communities had so many "unfit" men, that other men "had" to marry multiple wives? Other frontier communities all over North America, during the exact same time period seemed to manage to prosper, take care of those in need etc. without resorting to polygamy. What was it about Mormon society of that time period that created such a surplus of "unfit" men?[/QUOTE]

That's where I've thus far run into a brick wall in regards to my research.

And with how sick I've been lately (there's a virus going around here), I was barely even able to make it into the computer room to transcribe that article.
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 9:03PM #12
li47
Posts: 857
So, are you saying that there was something about Mormon society of the time that created a surplus of "unfit" men, and you just haven't yet researched why Mormon society produced so many "unfit" men?

Because that's what it sounds like to me - correct me if that isn't what you're saying.

BTW, what article?
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 11:12PM #13
BillThinks4Himself
Posts: 3,207
I don't buy the idea of "unfit men."  I've heard it before but I've never seen anything to support it.  If anything, D&C 132 suggests a more obvious cause: Joseph read about the multiple wives of characters like Abraham and wanted to know how that was supposed to work.  This is one of those questions where the scholarship of Gaia is needed.
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2008 - 11:46PM #14
MMCSFOX
Posts: 1,585
Sometime back dorjem accused me of being full of BS. Well I admit to having done my share of BS.

Now as I have been reading all of the speculation about things that no one really knows much about regarding these ... people I think that I need to take a back seat in the BS tossing arena.

It reads more like quotations from the Mormon haters of old that could not make up lies fast enough to meet the needs of their Editors. Some things seem to be just plain stupid.

I think it would be nice if we just let the local authorities do their job without all of the speculation and self-righteous pandering, as we only know what the news people tell us. It really seems that there will be more charges as they do more investigating.

Jesse F.
*
Editor: 1)  A person employed on a newspaper, whose business it is to separate the wheat from the chaff, and to see that the chaff is printed.
2) A delicate instrument for observing the development and flowering of the deadly mediocre and encouraging its growth.
  - The Roycroft Dictionary
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 10:29AM #15
Gaia-j
Posts: 636
[QUOTE=li47;450046]Ironhold, why was that Mormon communities had so many "unfit" men, that other men "had" to marry multiple wives? Other frontier communities all over North America, during the exact same time period seemed to manage to prosper, take care of those in need etc. without resorting to polygamy. What was it about Mormon society of that time period that created such a surplus of "unfit" men?[/QUOTE]



GAIA:

Hi There --

While this is frequently the story that many LDS believe and tell about the reason for polygamy, in fact, even LDS authorities themselves have DEBUNKED that notion:

The Mormon apostle John Widsoe de-bunked the common explanation that polygamy was practiced in order to provide homes to a surplus of women in the church:

  “Plural marriage has been a subject of wide and frequent comment. Members of the Church unfamiliar with its history, and many nonmembers, have set up fallacious reasons for the origin of this system of marriage among the Latter-day Saints.

"The most common of these conjectures is that the Church, through plural marriage, sought to provide husbands for its large surplus of female members. The implied assumption in this theory, that there have been more female than male members in the Church, is not supported by existing evidence . On the contrary, there seem always to have been  more males than females in the Church.     Families -- father, mother, and children -- have most commonly joined the Church. Of course, many single women have become converts, but also many single men.

The United States census records from 1850 to 1940, and all available Church records, uniformly show a preponderance of males in Utah, and in the Church.   Indeed, the excess in Utah has usually been larger than for the whole United States, as would be expected in a pioneer state. The births within the Church obey the usual population law -- a slight excess of males. Orson Pratt, writing in 1853 from direct knowledge of Utah conditions, when the excess of females was supposedly the highest, declares against the opinion that females outnumbered the males in Utah. (The Seer, p. 110) The theory that plural marriage was a consequence of a surplus of female Church members fails from lack of evidence." 


(John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations [Salt Lake City: Improvement Era], 390.)



From an LDS publication: 

“But then the proportion of the sexes in Utah would not, at present, admit of an extensive practice of plural marriage. When the census was taken five years ago, there were 143,963 souls in Utah Territory, not counting untaxed Indians. In this number there was an excess of 5,055 MALES over females. This does not have the appearance of permitting an extensive practice of plural marriage,...”   
(Juvenile Instructor, Vol. 20, page 133)


Blessings --
~Gaia
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 11:31AM #16
Gaia-j
Posts: 636
What LDS doctrine DOES indicate as the reason for plural marraige, was to "raise up a righteous seed" --  ie, children from the "best", most loyal and most highly respected families of the Church -- a kind of spiritual and moral "eugenics" program:


".... the Almighty might choose to raise up a righteous seed unto Himself, in which event the multiplication of such a seed would be right, no matter what might be said of the rest of the world. He said that such considerations would suggest that the prevailing moral sense of civilized nations, which was shocked at the family customs of the Morekidites, was based not so much upon reason as upon the ex cathedra decrees of tradition."
(Contributor, vol. 8 (November 1886-October 1887), Vol. Viii. December, 1886. No. 2. 69.)



"The unequally yoking together of believers with unbelievers is a great danger threatening the Latter-day Saints. The daughters of Zion are more inclined to make this mistake than her sons. But in olden times history testifies the reverse to have been the rule. The men of Israel were condemned frequently for marrying strange women. Now the Lord has gathered His people by the preaching of the Gospel to this choice land, to educate them and to raise up a righteous seed that will hear Him and do His will. He has given us one faith and one spirit. He has called us out of and to be separate from the world; from their ways and from their spirit. Our gathering and coming out from the world would be in vain, if we were to mix and mingle with the world in marriage and all their ways as before. We cross the danger line if we engage in any manner, in ways the Lord designed us to avoid, when He gathered us out." 

(Contributor, vol. 8 (November 1886-October 1887), Vol. Viii. December, 1886. No. 2. 70.)



"I know that the Lord, for a wise purpose, has called the noblest spirits that he had around him to come forth in this dispensation. He called them to come in humble circumstances that they might receive the experience necessary to try and prove them in all things, that they might descend below all things and gradually begin to ascend above all things; there was a wise design in this."
(Mar. 19, 1865, JD 11:100)


Apostle and Counselor in First Presidency, George Q Cannon:
"God has reserved spirits for this dispensation who have the courage and determination to face the world and all the powers of the evil one, visible and invisible, to proclaim the Gospel and maintain the truth and establish and build up the Zion of our God fearless of all consequences. He has sent these spirits in this generation to lay the foundation of Zion never more to be overthrown and to raise up a seed that will be righteous and that will honor God and honor Him supremely and be obedient to Him under all circumstances. "
(May 6, 1866, JD 11:230;  Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, selected, arranged, and edited by Jerreld L. Newquist [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1987], 18.)


Apostle Daniel H Wells:
    "The principles of plurality have been established, in order to raise up a righteous seed unto God.   The way has been pointed out, and it is a blessing that has been restored to this generation. It is a turning back to the holy principles of ancient days, even to the purity that was known in primitive ages. In this way only may we rise from corruption, through the Holy Priesthood of our God. We do not handle these things with proper sacredness, perhaps. It is a principle that is calculated to produce health, strength, and happiness here, as well as salvation hereafter. It is so esteemed by many, and when you see the principle as it really is, you will say that it is as I tell you.

(Daniel H. Wells, President Daniel H. Wells, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, March 1, 1857.; Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886], 4: 254 - 255.)


Apostle Erastus Snow:

[i] "But there are great numbers that I can call to mind who know for themselves that the Prophet Joseph did receive from the Lord and teach this order [Plural Marraige]  to the first Elders of this Church, and did receive and commit to writing this revelation on the subject of plural marriage which is contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, and did teach it and did practice it, and I am one of those witnesses. I know that he taught to me as early as in the spring of 1842 what God had revealed to him on the subject; .... And we testify of these things, that God has reserved to Himself this right to command His people when it seemeth to Him good and to accomplish the object He has in view—that is,   to raise up a righteous seed,   a seed that will pay respect to His law and will build up Zion in the earth."


(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886], 24: 166.)


Apostle George Q Cannon:

"...Brother [Apostle Orson] Pratt clearly showed to you, in his remarks the other day, that instead of the Book of Mormon being opposed to this principle [ie, Plural Marriage], it contains an express provision for the revelation of the principle to us as a people at some future time—namely, that  when the Lord should desire to raise up unto Himself a righteous seed, He would command His people   to that effect, plainly setting forth that a time would come when He would command His people to do so.

(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886], 13: 201 - 202.)



[i] "God has reserved spirits for this dispensation who have the courage and determination to face the world, and all the powers of the evil one, visible and invisible to proclaim the Gospel, and maintain the truth, and establish and build up the Zion of our God, fearless of all consequences. He has sent these spirits in this generation to lay the foundation of Zion never more to be overthrown, and to raise up a seed that will be righteous , and that will honor God, and honor him supremely, and be obedient to him under all circumstances."


(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886], 11: 231.)



Blessings --
~Gaia
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 12:49PM #17
UwishUwereMe
Posts: 2,352
"The trouble is that the FLDS mommies and daddies raise their daughters to be given to some other old goat, and send their teenage sons packing into homeless oblivion so as to decrease competition for these nubile young brides."

To add a little more to your post Moksha, As a person in my young singles ward who works with young men with same-sex-attraction, I see other things comming form the FLDS and similar colonies.

I went to stay in Nevada with my cousins who are members of the church.  I met an over whelmingly large number of young men and adolescent boys from FLDS working as "gay" escorts and prostitutes to earn money for a living.  They (many) have no real social skills and ability to function well out side of the colony so as natural creatures they use one of the most basic functions that a human knows.

Google it, it will shock and surprise you. 

I refrain from being too critical on the FLDS religion in its self becasue I know comming form RLDS which is basically a protestant church with LDS scriptures how it can be when acting inter-LDS-denominationally, interdenominationally, and inter-religiously. 

I try hard not to condem the members, but it is true they and every one of them MUST be held accountable.  The rape and torture of pre-pubesent girls, and the casting out and eventual loathsome lifestyles of gay-prostitutes is NOT what the Lord has intended. 

If you will know them by their fruits, then they should be known as rotten to the core. 

I got messages stating that I am too supportive of the FLDS.  No I DO NOT support the FLDS in any way.  But many of the people there are doing the best they know how to do under their circumstances, and no I don't believe that sitting idly by and praying for them is enough.  But I feel that the situation should be approached gingerly and with tact.  And, they do need and deserve our prayers.

Peace
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 1:07PM #18
Ironhold
Posts: 11,587
[QUOTE=li47;450071]So, are you saying that there was something about Mormon society of the time that created a surplus of "unfit" men, and you just haven't yet researched why Mormon society produced so many "unfit" men?

Because that's what it sounds like to me - correct me if that isn't what you're saying.

BTW, what article?[/QUOTE]

I've re-posted it elsewhere.

Try that link.
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 1:09PM #19
Ironhold
Posts: 11,587
The ACLU is now getting involved in favor of the compound.

They say that yanking the kids away from their mothers will severely damage the kids, and they are suspicious of the fact that the authorities have failed to produce the girl who supposedly set everything in motion.
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7 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2008 - 6:16PM #20
li47
Posts: 857
Thank you Gaia, interesting and informative.
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