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Sticky: Reconstructing heathenry~
7 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2008 - 4:24PM #11
Drknss
Posts: 135
@sjalge

[QUOTE]those people will just ignore him and have to look up sources themselves.[/QUOTE]

I'd hope they'd look the sources up themselves anyway. Even if they did know the person well. Simply because there maybe more usefull information. That the person didn't include do to making a breif statement.

Again, I had the same reaction as you towards Boars Heart. When I first started posting here but after awhile. I found that after the dust settles, he doesn't go around betting everyone about the head with a duh stick.

He doesn't antagonise new members for asking honest questions.

If you make a statement that isn't completely from left field. Than you probably wont get hit with the duh stick.


You know what else?

We're both members of AL and he hasn't caused any controversy at all. As far as I can tell....

And he does post in the same manner, in which he posts here.

Anyways, Take Care. :)
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 22, 2008 - 7:17PM #12
boars_heart
Posts: 31
[QUOTE]You know what else?

We're both members of AL and he hasn't caused any controversy at all. As far as I can tell....

And he does post in the same manner, in which he posts here.
[/QUOTE]

LOL . . .

I blame T-Ball . . . you know, where there are no losers, just a team that did "very well" and a team that did "almost as good." 

We've been raising a generation of molly-coddled self-esteem junkies who want patted endlessly on the head just for remembering to breath in and out . . . and have never been spoken to bluntly in their lives, or heard a forthright statement of opinion delivered plainly, without a lot of ego-stroking preamble to make sure no one feels bad about there being an actual POV in the room . . . *rotfl*

*shrug*

I am who I am.  Surely ain't changing at MY age, lol.  Them as gets me loves me or at least respects me, those as likes to get their frilly lil' girl panties in a twist and take things personally what ain't even pointed their direction in the first place . . . well, I like to know which ones those are gonna be right up front.

Saves time. *G*

~Boar
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2008 - 2:22AM #13
Lugh
Posts: 43
[QUOTE=boars_heart;373227]@ Lugh~



Linguistics, for one, which yielded Bauschatz' seminal The Well & The Tree,



~Boar[/QUOTE]


Amazon doesn't have it.  Will check out the library and a used book store here in town.  And do some homework on the other things you mentioned.     But, am definitely starting with a bias towards the view that we simply can't mentally put ourselves into the mindset of a long dead culture.   Perhaps it can be done on an intellectual basis, but I doubt one can actually "feel" it.

Difficult enough to understand a living culture different from our own.   For instance, this elderly white male living in a "mixed" but predominantly black neighborhood that's in the process of being  "rebuilt", just a hop skip and a jump north of downtown Memphis, strolled over to an ancient little store for a loaf of bread earlier this evening.    Even if I wanted to, could I put myself into the cultural mindset of a couple of black youths hanging out there?    Here's a couple of kids in the hip hop gang banger wannabe (or not wannabe).  How could I possibly "feel" their culture, even if I took the trouble to intellectually understand it?

Browsing through one of the many groups on Beliefnet, I noticed a short thread on the subject of animal sacrifice.   Apparently it's not something most folks would do these days......unless one is Santeria.    To me it's not that strange a concept......but I hunted when I was younger, as a child in a small town a neighbor slaughtered his own chickens, we sometimes bought meat from a small slaughterhouse where I watched cows executed on an individual basis, when I was on a small farm in North Central Wisconsin I've helped a neighbor butcher his beef  (not very good at it...it is a skill that takes some practice) and so the death of an animal is not all that strange to me.   Though I personally preferred to put a beef or hog on the truck and send it to the pro's........not a smart financial decision, I know.  But the cuts of meat did come back looking like they are supposed to.  :)

Dedicating an animal to the gods, killing and eating it.......perfectly understandable to me.  (Though when one hasn't been around that sort of thing for years....it would take a small bit of getting used to again.  Bloody messes have never been something I cared for)

     But to an urban raised person who's meat has always come from the grocery, someone to whom the death of an animal, even a bird caught by a cat or a squirrel run over by a car is a kind of tragedy.....they simply have a hard time understanding this concept.       

Certainly they could adjust to it if they had to, just as I would quickly readjust to it.......their revulsion at the thought of killing and butchering an animal would either disappear or subside to no more than thinking of it as a distasteful chore.    But without actually being involved in the experiance on a fairly regular basis, most people are going to be disgusted at the thought of honoring the gods with an animal sacrifice.   Viewing it as a good and proper thing is beyond the comprehension of most urban people these days.   Intellectually they might understand it, might agree that as long as the animal is going to be eaten it's alright.......but emotionally it will be unpleasant to them.

Don't know if I'm getting the point across, but am trying to say that many things in a different culture are impossible for someone to comprehend unless they actually experiance that culture, actually live in it.

Lugh
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2008 - 2:22AM #14
Lugh
Posts: 43
[QUOTE=boars_heart;373227]@ Lugh~



Linguistics, for one, which yielded Bauschatz' seminal The Well & The Tree,



~Boar[/QUOTE]


Amazon doesn't have it.  Will check out the library and a used book store here in town.  And do some homework on the other things you mentioned.     But, am definitely starting with a bias towards the view that we simply can't mentally put ourselves into the mindset of a long dead culture.   Perhaps it can be done on an intellectual basis, but I doubt one can actually "feel" it.

Difficult enough to understand a living culture different from our own.   For instance, this elderly white male living in a "mixed" but predominantly black neighborhood that's in the process of being  "rebuilt", just a hop skip and a jump north of downtown Memphis, strolled over to an ancient little store for a loaf of bread earlier this evening.    Even if I wanted to, could I put myself into the cultural mindset of a couple of black youths hanging out there?    Here's a couple of kids in the hip hop gang banger wannabe (or not wannabe).  How could I possibly "feel" their culture, even if I took the trouble to intellectually understand it?

Browsing through one of the many groups on Beliefnet, I noticed a short thread on the subject of animal sacrifice.   Apparently it's not something most folks would do these days......unless one is Santeria.    To me it's not that strange a concept......but I hunted when I was younger, as a child in a small town a neighbor slaughtered his own chickens, we sometimes bought meat from a small slaughterhouse where I watched cows executed on an individual basis, when I was on a small farm in North Central Wisconsin I've helped a neighbor butcher his beef  (not very good at it...it is a skill that takes some practice) and so the death of an animal is not all that strange to me.   Though I personally preferred to put a beef or hog on the truck and send it to the pro's........not a smart financial decision, I know.  But the cuts of meat did come back looking like they are supposed to.  :)

Dedicating an animal to the gods, killing and eating it.......perfectly understandable to me.  (Though when one hasn't been around that sort of thing for years....it would take a small bit of getting used to again.  Bloody messes have never been something I cared for)

     But to an urban raised person who's meat has always come from the grocery, someone to whom the death of an animal, even a bird caught by a cat or a squirrel run over by a car is a kind of tragedy.....they simply have a hard time understanding this concept.       

Certainly they could adjust to it if they had to, just as I would quickly readjust to it.......their revulsion at the thought of killing and butchering an animal would either disappear or subside to no more than thinking of it as a distasteful chore.    But without actually being involved in the experiance on a fairly regular basis, most people are going to be disgusted at the thought of honoring the gods with an animal sacrifice.   Viewing it as a good and proper thing is beyond the comprehension of most urban people these days.   Intellectually they might understand it, might agree that as long as the animal is going to be eaten it's alright.......but emotionally it will be unpleasant to them.

Don't know if I'm getting the point across, but am trying to say that many things in a different culture are impossible for someone to comprehend unless they actually experiance that culture, actually live in it.

Lugh
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2008 - 5:04AM #15
Drknss
Posts: 135
@ Lugh

[QUOTE]Amazon doesn't have it. Will check out the library and a used book store here in town. And do some homework on the other things you mentioned. But, am definitely starting with a bias towards the view that we simply can't mentally put ourselves into the mindset of a long dead culture. Perhaps it can be done on an intellectual basis, but I doubt one can actually "feel" it[/QUOTE]

Check the book hoard thread, I posted the title with a link to a print ondemand site. That has the soft and hard back version. I bought the hard back for about $90. That's if you cann't find it at the second hand store or library. Since you'll probably be able to get it cheaper there.

Replying generally to the rest of Lughs post.

There are many things that we wont be able to reconstruct exactly. Like challenging someone to a duel in a court house. LOL! With these thing we'll have to find a modern alternative.

Animal sacrificies have, do and will take place. Some people wont do them and some people can't. Based on their living arangement, like an apartment.

I think what's being over looked here. Is that our ancestors evolved "with in" their worldview to meet their needs.

This is something we'll have to do as well but we should do it as they did "with in" their worldview.

Anyways, Take Care. :)
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2008 - 11:20AM #16
sjalge
Posts: 21
@Boars_Heart

There was no reason for this thread to be turned into "the Dr. Phil Show" except through your own making.  I see little point in discussing this (or really anything else) further with you as you come to all discussions I have read here from the stand point of your own infalibiluty.  I have clearly upset you (though it didn't seem to take much, you may want to check the frilliness of your dress).  I am not sure you are capible of listening to any suggestions pointed your way.  So, I give up.  There is no point in screaming at a deaf man.  I am however glad you noticed however that I rock.  Finally an astute observation
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2008 - 11:35AM #17
sjalge
Posts: 21
@Drknss

I agree that everyone should read sources themselves.  But someone who is well read can help point people to the correct sources without the attitude.  Hopefully I can find someone out there who is well read and I can learn where some sources are from without the needless venom.  You obviously have a lot of respect for Boars, I might have as well had he not jumped down my throat for a simple and well meaning suggestion.  He hadn't bothered me previously but I'm done playing his game.  A simple 'that doesn't work" would have sufficed my first post one this thread.  So, I will continue to seek sources myself, and people who are scholarly, reconstructionists who are also reasonable people.  I don't care to deal with well read egotists.  I do appreciate your contributions.  You have attempted to act as a moderating voice.  Thanks.
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7 years ago  ::  Mar 23, 2008 - 2:33PM #18
giertruidis
Posts: 206
Another thing we don't reconstruct is the drug use.  The real Pilsner beers with the halucinagenics in them.
In traditional cultures these kinds of drinks are used under the guidance of a "priest/medicine man/shaman/witch"   in order to connect with the spirit world.  Depending on the cultures views these will be either dieties or intemedaries such as ancestors.  Since the herbs used such as hendane are also sexual stimulants we can therebye assume that there were al lot of estatic spiritual and sexual experiences and they were so important that they named cities after the plants.  Either that or our ancestors were the ultimate in party animals.

Since the majority of people are not living as neolithic farmers and hunters and warriors but as city dwellers any reconstruction has to take into account the shft of life styles.  The original live style can not be recreated without removing several billion people. 

The fact that people these days can look up the sources and can study them for them selves eliminates the cultural peer pressure to conform that our ancestors lived with.  In fact the need, often quoted, to be scholarly total contradicts the neolithic life styles and world views some are trying to emulate.  Historically the Vikings didn't go out of their way to spare libraries, nor were our Germanic ancestors impressed by Roman scholarly knowledge.  So in many ways Boar is being true to his view of his version of reconstuction which is the attitude "my way or the highway".  This is not a reconstruction I personally  can live with. 

The parts I choose to eliminate is the insular, the conformist views, the need to dominate and invade.  I am keeping only the mythic elements, the ancestors, the dieties and certain folkways.  These are the only parts that fit into a modern urban lifestyle in a multicultural society. 
In the sagas and myths there are stories of tolerance, of compasion, of learning how to compromise as well as the "hit'em over the head" and revenge stories.  It is these stories that we should be mining for the reconstruction of heathenism.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2008 - 6:00PM #19
FlorenceCraye
Posts: 1
Getting back (at least somewhat) to Boars Heart's initial post, he brings up something that I've struggled with for nearly seven years, since I walked away from christianity.

Living in a culture so rooted in Judeo-Christian foundations, and having been raised in a Presbyterian household, I have always found it very difficult to weed out that unconscious christianity.

I'm curious about how others are dealing with this pervasive worldview. How have you, in your own ways, tried to "think like heathens"?

Personally, it's something that I get overwhelmed by regularly, especially while I'm barely treading water everywhere else in my life. It's difficult to find the time and energy to combat insidious Jesus-ry when sometimes, it just seems easier to let it go and address it "soon." So I'm interested in how the rest of you are managing it.

--Flo.
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6 years ago  ::  Mar 24, 2008 - 9:52PM #20
Drknss
Posts: 135
@ FlorenceCraye

[QUOTE]Getting back (at least somewhat) to Boars Heart's initial post, he brings up something that I've struggled with for nearly seven years, since I walked away from christianity.

Living in a culture so rooted in Judeo-Christian foundations, and having been raised in a Presbyterian household, I have always found it very difficult to weed out that unconscious christianity.

I'm curious about how others are dealing with this pervasive worldview. How have you, in your own ways, tried to "think like heathens"?

Personally, it's something that I get overwhelmed by regularly, especially while I'm barely treading water everywhere else in my life. It's difficult to find the time and energy to combat insidious Jesus-ry when sometimes, it just seems easier to let it go and address it "soon." So I'm interested in how the rest of you are managing it.[/QUOTE]

I just reconise it for what it is. A reimnant of the Christian worldview and try to figure out what caused it to pop up.

It's actually been happening to me lately too. When I'm at work, I usually try to sing (in my head) upbeat songs to myself. While I'm working, it helps to motivate me and keep me in a good mode. Lately, some old child hood songs have been popping up. Like "Here comes Peter Cottontail", "She'll be coming around the mountain" Which aren't bad at all but then the Christian one pops up "Onward Cristian Soldiers" I reconise it as a Christian song and then I try to figure out. What lead me to think of it.

What I've come up with, is that since it's a child hood song as well as the others. If one of the other two pop up then that one will eventually pop up too.

What I first tried to do was Heathenize it. With lyrics like "Onward Oðin's soldiers, blah blah blah." Then I realised that though I changed the words. The song still reflected the christian worldview. So now, I'm just reconising it as a christian song and as a song that represents the worldview, that I wont to get rid of. Then I try to think of a more heathenish song to replace it. Like Stormwarrior's "Lindisfarne.":D

Hope that helps.

Take Care. :)
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