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7 years ago  ::  Feb 18, 2008 - 10:27PM #1
lil_lamb
Posts: 2,898
i picked up this book by carlos casteneda second hand and have started reading it. i was curious if anyone else has read it? like so many figures, he seems followed by controversy.

i'm enjoying it. his "stopping the world" principle rings familiar to me and reading his take on it is interesting. in a nutshell, i'd describe this as getting out of your narrative - that thing we all have that describes the relationships of everything in the world and even what the boundary of the world is - that map which is so familiar, we treat it as the world itself.

i'm wondering if anybody has anything like that in their own practice/faith too...?
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2008 - 1:40AM #2
lil_lamb
Posts: 2,898
guess not! lol.
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7 years ago  ::  Feb 23, 2008 - 6:03PM #3
CreakyHedgewitch
Posts: 1,244
[QUOTE=lil_lamb;297877]i picked up this book by carlos casteneda second hand and have started reading it. i was curious if anyone else has read it? like so many figures, he seems followed by controversy.

i'm enjoying it. his "stopping the world" principle rings familiar to me and reading his take on it is interesting. in a nutshell, i'd describe this as getting out of your narrative - that thing we all have that describes the relationships of everything in the world and even what the boundary of the world is - that map which is so familiar, we treat it as the world itself.

i'm wondering if anybody has anything like that in their own practice/faith too...?[/QUOTE]

I read his books nearly thirty years ago, so I can't remember too much other than being puzzled as to why one would want to do what he was suggesting. He was very controversial at that time and considered to be shamanistic and 'on the fringe' if I recall correctly. 

The 'getting out of one's narrative' concept though is really found within various faiths, philosophies and science though the language varies.

A couple of questions for you on this subject. If our narrative isn't supposed to function as our map of the world, why do we have a narrative? And without such, how then do we relate to the world that is?

I can't remember what Casteneda said about such specifically.


C.H.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 24, 2008 - 3:32AM #4
lil_lamb
Posts: 2,898

CreakyHedgewitch wrote:

I read his books nearly thirty years ago, so I can't remember too much other than being puzzled as to why one would want to do what he was suggesting. He was very controversial at that time and considered to be shamanistic and 'on the fringe' if I recall correctly. 



interesting to know your reaction. apparently the man produces that reaction in a lot of people... including his teacher and himself.

haven't read the other books. i get the feeling from this book, he and his other books were about a quest for peyote. this book seems to be about his teacher telling him he was a self-important fool and him realising that was true.

the one i'm reading is book #3. i gather there are yet more. i don't know, maybe his epiphany didn't go deep enough, why he kept writing books?


The 'getting out of one's narrative' concept though is really found within various faiths, philosophies and science though the language varies.

i don't suppose that's why i think it's familiar. but it's picked out in detail here and comes with techniques, which i thought interesting. made me wonder how many folks think to highlight it specifically the way he's done.


A couple of questions for you on this subject. If our narrative isn't supposed to function as our map of the world, why do we have a narrative? And without such, how then do we relate to the world that is?

I can't remember what Casteneda said about such specifically.

i haven't finished the book, so i don't know what casteneda thinks the point is.

for myself, i surmise the point of "getting out" is that we can be A) sloppy map-makers and B) the map isn't actually the world it represents. my friend pixie and i, over on the singles board, were talking about the differences between us 'old people' and kids. she's got a young son. for example, we look at barbie and right away start thinking about the philosophical implications of a doll's 39-21-33 bust-waist-hip ratio. her son sees a plastic toy whose legs can be removed and floated separately in the bathtub. it's like, yeah, when was the last time we thought about that?

oh, i do think casteneda's *sorceror* teacher's point was casteneda needed to exchange his *silly map* for a better one. i think it's really a funny book. very comedic.

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6 years ago  ::  Feb 24, 2008 - 11:14AM #5
CreakyHedgewitch
Posts: 1,244
...what his purpose actually was. I agree, some folks deifnitely need a better map and each of us have challenging terrain from time to time in our maps.

I have a framed sign above my desk that says, "You Can't Have Everything, Where would you put it?" (in allusion to inheriting a family gene called 'packrat'.) 

In relation to internal maps, would it not make sense to say that  'You can't experience everything possible all at once, how would you ever sort out what works for you right now?'.....? 

Given enough time and the incentive to remember, the kid that still dwells within each parent might react 'oh, floating Barbie legs in the bathtub' rather than 'get a real waist measurement girlfriend!'.  Each immediate reaction however can be considered the appropriate perspective for that intersection point  at that moment between that specific individual's map and the world, here represented by multi-purpose Barbie.

I would suspect that even those who are engaged in achieving the Buddha mindset must deal with the moment by monent intersection points between their internal map and the world or cease to exist. Which is often the point of that mindset but I digress.

If you think of one's map like...a wisdom walk that we each walk, is not our awareness of where we stand now, where we are stepping and the scenery around us (the world) then become the immediate intersection point between from moment to moment? And are we not self-responsible for being aware of that ever unfolding point through our experiences, memories, reactions and decisions?

C.H.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 24, 2008 - 11:14AM #6
CreakyHedgewitch
Posts: 1,244
...what his purpose actually was. I agree, some folks deifnitely need a better map and each of us have challenging terrain from time to time in our maps.

I have a framed sign above my desk that says, "You Can't Have Everything, Where would you put it?" (in allusion to inheriting a family gene called 'packrat'.) 

In relation to internal maps, would it not make sense to say that  'You can't experience everything possible all at once, how would you ever sort out what works for you right now?'.....? 

Given enough time and the incentive to remember, the kid that still dwells within each parent might react 'oh, floating Barbie legs in the bathtub' rather than 'get a real waist measurement girlfriend!'.  Each immediate reaction however can be considered the appropriate perspective for that intersection point  at that moment between that specific individual's map and the world, here represented by multi-purpose Barbie.

I would suspect that even those who are engaged in achieving the Buddha mindset must deal with the moment by monent intersection points between their internal map and the world or cease to exist. Which is often the point of that mindset but I digress.

If you think of one's map like...a wisdom walk that we each walk, is not our awareness of where we stand now, where we are stepping and the scenery around us (the world) then become the immediate intersection point between from moment to moment? And are we not self-responsible for being aware of that ever unfolding point through our experiences, memories, reactions and decisions?

C.H.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
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6 years ago  ::  Feb 24, 2008 - 11:52PM #7
lil_lamb
Posts: 2,898
[QUOTE]And are we not self-responsible for being aware of that ever unfolding point through our experiences, memories, reactions and decisions?[/QUOTE]

i wonder how many people know that they can be self-responsible for their awareness to any extent. but certainly, i agree.
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2008 - 4:20PM #8
Yana
Posts: 7
Castaneda is indeed controversial for a number of reasons.

I read all his books years ago. I thought they were fun reading and very thought provoking. They really helped me alot on my spiritual path. Though the fact his claims often appear to be at odds with the truth bothers me, I have little tollerance for lies. Still I got alot from his books, but then I often glean things that provoke serious thought from fiction.

I think there is something to be said about taking a good look at our internal maps- how we internalize certain beleifs about ourself and the world around us. After reading his book I became more aware of my responcibility in my own reality, and I am greatful for that. I strive to often reevaluate what I beleive about myself and the world around me for personal growth. But still I think Casteneda's own life holds cautions about taking that re-mapping too far- for example, is it really spritiual enlightenment to abandon your wife and child and lie about thier ever existing?  Is such behaviour really a way to enlightenment, or is it self delusion that inhibits spiritual growth?
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6 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2008 - 7:05PM #9
CreakyHedgewitch
Posts: 1,244
[QUOTE=Yana;433615]Castaneda is indeed controversial for a number of reasons.

I read all his books years ago. I thought they were fun reading and very thought provoking. They really helped me alot on my spiritual path. Though the fact his claims often appear to be at odds with the truth bothers me, I have little tollerance for lies. Still I got alot from his books, but then I often glean things that provoke serious thought from fiction.

I think there is something to be said about taking a good look at our internal maps- how we internalize certain beleifs about ourself and the world around us. After reading his book I became more aware of my responcibility in my own reality, and I am greatful for that. I strive to often reevaluate what I beleive about myself and the world around me for personal growth. But still I think Casteneda's own life holds cautions about taking that re-mapping too far- for example, is it really spritiual enlightenment to abandon your wife and child and lie about thier ever existing?  Is such behaviour really a way to enlightenment, or is it self delusion that inhibits spiritual growth?[/QUOTE]
Yana,

A good question and one that lies at the core of several religions, I believe. Where indeed are the boundaries within our internal map between reality, enlightenment and self-delusion? A subject that humans have been discussing for generations...fascinating stuff.

Reading might perhaps be described as the transitory intersection between our reality and another's description of his or her reality. What we take with us when we walk away from that intersection (IMO) is far more important than ever making a commitment to any author's beliefs.

C.H.
No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
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5 years ago  ::  Apr 01, 2009 - 4:28PM #10
Shamanmystic
Posts: 620

Feb 18, 2008 -- 10:27PM, lil_lamb wrote:

his "stopping the world" principle rings familiar to me and reading his take on it is interesting.i'm wondering if anybody has anything like that in their own practice/faith too...?



Stopping the World occurs during altered state of consciousness.. ie time dilation... the world stops...... ie the eternal now.......


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_state_of_consciousness


During shamanistic trance there comes a point when all motion ceases and one can step out and observe from a different place...


I read his works back in the early 80's.... By the way his looking at ones hands technique is used by lucid dreamers to stabilize the dream environment.

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